1. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 17:551 edit
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    Why do you want one book for all of those things?

    Give me a couple of hours and I'll do you one in 10% of the words.
    Sugiezd,

    Three posts since I posed this question and ample time to respond. And still no one has specifically mentioned another book which takes as much words to explain such importants matters in its introductory chapters.

    Now on the other discussion your general indictment was that I was beyond hope and too far gone. If that follows for all discussions I don't think we should waste time conversing with each other.

    As to your question, it is not a matter of what I want. It is a matter of you recommending ANOTHER book which does what the Bible does in as many words.

    So maybe the "beyond hope" assessment belongs to your inability to present a book which is in the same class as the Bible.
  2. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 17:58
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Please specifically, and I mean specifically, tell me of another book which does this:

    In the first several thousand words tells us

    1.) The origin of world

    2.) The origin of human beings

    3.) The origin of animals

    4.) The purpose for which man was created

    5.) The origin of the institution of marriage

    6.) The first murder in history ...[text shortened]... s ... a specific other book which tells us of such 13 basic and vital matters in as many words.
    If the Bible tell you the purpose for which man was created, can you please tell me what is it?

    And then I will answer your question..
  3. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:101 edit
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    If the Bible tell you the purpose for which man was created, can you please tell me what is it?

    And then I will answer your question..
    Why do you need me to answer that particular question before you submit another book which does what the Bible does in this regard?

    I am talking about the first 11 or 12 chapters of Genesis in which these major issues of man's existence are covered economically.

    What other book covers in so few words such foundational origins about human life?

    Genesis 1:26 - 28 tell us why man was created by God. He was created in the image of God to have dominion for God over God's creation:

    "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

    And God created man in His own image; in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

    And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of thesea and over the birds of heaven and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26-28)


    In short God created man to express God and rule for God over God's creation.
  4. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:17
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Why do you need me to answer that particular question before you submit another book which does what the Bible does in this regard?

    I am talking about the first 11 or 12 chapters of Genesis in which these major issues of man's existence are covered economically.

    What other book covers in so few words such foundational origins about human life?

    ...[text shortened]... 6-28)


    In short God created man to express God and rule for God over God's creation.[/b]
    So the Bible doesn't ask you worship your GOD and not to submite yourself to him.

    Ok Quran answer this particular question in much fewer words: That is why I asked you about it.

    Quran Sura:
    051.056
    YUSUFALI: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
    PICKTHAL: I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
    SHAKIR: And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me

    From your answer I feel that you don't agree with the Quran answer. Am I right?
  5. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:25
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    So the Bible doesn't ask you worship your GOD and not to submite yourself to him.

    Ok Quran answer this particular question in much fewer words: That is why I asked you about it.

    Quran Sura:
    051.056
    YUSUFALI: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
    PICKTHAL: I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
    SHA ...[text shortened]... ld serve Me

    From your answer I feel that you don't agree with the Quran answer. Am I right?
    The original worship of God by man is depicted in Genesis 2. It is that man is placed before "the tree of life". God presents Himself to man as food. Man is to take God into himself.

    This is the original worship of God by man. That is for man to "eat" God as "food". That is for man to take God into himself so that God is dispensed into the inner being of man.

    I tell you ahosney that God presented Himself to the original created couple as food to eat. No instructions were given about how to bow, how to pray, how to praise, or how to do any of those religious things. God presented Himself originally as food to be taken in and give man the divine life.

    So the created man was placed before the tree of life.

    I do not say that the physical tree was God Himself. I say that the tree of life stood for God entering into man. If Adam were to take of the tree of life God would be dispensed into his being.

    The true worship is to take God into us as our "food" for nourishment and supply. The picture there in Genesis teaches us that man was created to contain God within as his eternal life.
  6. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:302 edits
    Ahosney,

    My point was that the 12 origins were covered in the first 11 or 12 chapters of a unique book, the Bible.

    You mentioned an instance where the Quran speaks something about man's creation. But is this in the first introductory chapters? And what about the other 11 points?

    What foundational origins are covered in the early words of the Quran? Can it compare with the Bible in this regard of covering so many vital and crucial aspects of human existence in an introductory way? I don't think it compares.

    And though I have seen some cackling here and there by the Bible's critics, no one has presented a competing book except you. At least you tried.
  7. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:32
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The original worship of God by man is depicted in Genesis 2. It is that man is placed before [b]"the tree of life". God presents Himself to man as food. Man is to take God into himself.

    This is the original worship of God by man. That is for man to "eat" God as "food". That is for man to take God into himself so that God is dispensed into the inner be ...[text shortened]... re in Genesis teaches us that man was created to contain God within as his eternal life.[/b]
    Where did you get this meaning of worship?

    When I talk about worship I understand I can show it to you clearly in Quran. Can you show me exactly where I can find that meaning of worship directly in the Bible.


    If this is the meaning of worship, so why GOD was not happy when the couple eat from the tree if that was worship.

    The other question is how do you worship your GOD now.
  8. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:38
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Ahosney,

    My point was that the 12 origins were covered in the first 11 or 12 chapters of a unique book, the Bible.

    You mentioned an instance where the Quran speaks something about man's creation. But is this in the first introductory chapters? And what about the other 11 points?

    What foundational origins are covered in the early words of the ...[text shortened]... by the Bible's critics, no one has presented a competing book except you. At least you tried.
    What difference does it make to you where it is mentioned? All you questions are answered and more.

    But who say that your 12 points are the origin of the human being. You can say that but who agree with you?

    The other point Quran is different in the way it ordered than the Bible. The first few chapters of the Book are not introduction of the Book. Because simple is not a human written book it doesn't follow human writting pattern.

    If you want to compare of course you cann't compare. The Quran is superior in all aspects .!!!
  9. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 18:463 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Where did you get this meaning of worship?

    When I talk about worship I understand I can show it to you clearly in Quran. Can you show me exactly where I can find that meaning of worship directly in the Bible.


    If this is the meaning of worship, so why GOD was not happy when the couple eat from the tree if that was worship.

    The other question is how do you worship your GOD now.
    Your questions are good ones. But they take me away from my challenge a little.

    We have a number of people who have accused the authorship of the Bible to be some rather dim witted types - not too intelligent. Notice not one of these critics have presented a competing book to the Bible in its economical explanation of crucial aspects of human existence.

    Briefly to your point, Adam never took the tree of life in as food. He took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in as food. That was the other tree. And that was the forbidden fruit.

    That tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused man to be Satanified. Man was infested with the evil spirit of Satan. He was fallen into corruption.

    After he was fallen into the Satanification and infestation of the evil spirit God put a guard around the tree of life so man could no longer partake of receiving the divine life of God:

    "And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; now lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever -

    Therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he was taken.

    So He drove the man outm and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed a cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life" (Gen. 3:22-24)


    God had a threefold demand upon man which now made the divine life signified by the tree of life excluded from man's enjoyment.

    1.) The Cherubim represent the glory of God. Man has fallen short of the glory of God.

    2.) The sword represents the righteousness of God. In being Satanified and poisoned by the sin nature man has fallen short of the righteousness of God.

    3.) The flame of the flaming sword represents the holiness of God. Man has fallen short of the holy nature of God - that which sets God apart from all other created things in the universe. He is holy.

    Man has fallen from his neutral position into a postion where there is now the demand of glory, the demand of righteousness, and the demand of holiness upon man before he can come back to the eternal purpose of God.

    I will talk more about worship in another post. The medium here is a limitation.
  10. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 19:062 edits
    The other question is how do you worship your GOD now.


    Essentially the same way. The way of eating. We need to eat the Triune God by taking Christ into us. He is in a form in which we can constantly receive Him:

    "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    God is in the form of the life giving Spirit for us to receive. This is a kind of "eating" and feasting. It is a kind of drinking. So God in many places depicts worship in terms of feasting and drinking in the Old Testmament.

    The Old Testament is the picture. The New Testament is the caption underneath the picture. In the divine and mystical realm of our human spirit we are to receive Christ by absorbing Him up into our whole being. This absorbing of Christ is worship.

    We may abosorb Him in prayer or in praise .We may absorb Him by abiding in Him and He in us. We may absorb Him by saying "Amen" to His leading and prompting.

    The true worship is to drink and eat the all-inclusive life giving Spirit.

    "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me shall also live because of Me." (John 6:57)

    We may eat Christ by taking into our heart His word. We may drink Christ by calling on His name. No disturbance is necessary. We just whisper His name and we contact Him. He makes His home in our hearts by faith and comes to live within us:

    "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith" (Eph. 3:17)

    So the first step to worship God is to receive Him in the Son. When we receive Him we receive forgiveness, reconciliation, redemption, justification. The salvation is in Him Himself as a living Person.

    The justification is in Himself. And He is today a life giving Spirit ready to be imparted into our spiritual innermost being.

    The worship is to live Him. The worship is to abide in the realm of the living Person and in the sphere of the Spirit of divine life in Christ. Out of this abiding will come the singing, the praising, the worship even of shouting if need be. He puts a song in our hearts. He gives us a reason to praise and shout from the inside out. We know God.

    We do not just know ABOUT God. We know God.
  11. Standard memberspiritmangr8ness
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    17 Nov '06 19:571 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Where did you get the information that all the biblical writers were martyred?
    Consistency? You must be reading a different book!
    I will give you the reference but all of the Apostles were martyred with the exception of John


    http://www.direct.ca/trinity/disciples.html
  12. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 21:03
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b] The other question is how do you worship your GOD now.


    Essentially the same way. The way of eating. We need to eat the Triune God by taking Christ into us. He is in a form in which we can constantly receive Him:

    "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    God is in the form of the life giving Spirit for us to ...[text shortened]... hout from the inside out. We know God.

    We do not just know ABOUT God. We know God.[/b]
    What you are talking about is not worship. It is the way you see your GOD , it is not by any mean a worship !!!!


    Besides you didn't show any proove to it from your Book.

    All what you said is a concolusion from the scriptures but they could be interpreted in a very different way, especially if there is another scripture contradict your meaning of worship.

    Let me aske another couple of questions:

    Jesus him self worship GOD, he bowed to him and put his face into the ground:

    Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face and prayed saying O my Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt

    As you can see Jesus himself was praying to the father. Isn't this a worship. If yes how do you compare it to what you said before?. And if not then how do you explain what Jesus did?

    Also I would like you to point out to me the following, because I found a big problem:


    John 4:19 - The woman saith unto him Sir I perceive that thou art a prophet.

    John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

    John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her Woman believe me the hour cometh +__ when ye shall neither in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father

    John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what we know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews

    John 4:23 But the hour cometh and now is when the true. worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for +__ the Father seeketh such to worship him

    John 4:24 God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth


    The woman called him a prophet and he agreed with her. And also the big problem what is ment by worship here because in Arabic translations they translated the word worship to be "Sajad" which means bow not worship. So if it really mean worship, is it the same meaning or is really to bow to GOD.
  13. Standard memberBigDogg
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    17 Nov '06 21:20
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Please specifically, and I mean specifically, tell me of another book which does this:

    In the first several thousand words tells us

    1.) The origin of world

    2.) The origin of human beings

    3.) The origin of animals

    4.) The purpose for which man was created

    5.) The origin of the institution of marriage

    6.) The first murder in history ...[text shortened]... s ... a specific other book which tells us of such 13 basic and vital matters in as many words.
    The bible doesn't really answer questions 1) through 3); it just claims "God did it", without explaining the method.
  14. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 22:37
    i would have to agree with this, there is no proof that god did this, it is merely words written that you either accept as truth or you dont. charles darwin's "the origin of the species" does much to answer where we came from and why we are here and there is scientific proof for this as well, yet christians still claim god did it all, basically the only proof they have are words from a book, that is it really, nothing more, nothing less...
  15. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 23:141 edit
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    i would have to agree with this, there is no proof that god did this, it is merely words written that you either accept as truth or you dont. charles darwin's "the origin of the species" does much to answer where we came from and why we are here and there is scientific proof for this as well, yet christians still claim god did it all, basically the only proof they have are words from a book, that is it really, nothing more, nothing less...
    Hold on here. The issue is not whether you agree or not. The issue is not even if you believe or do not.

    The issue is that in an economical way the Bible explains in few words about the origin of these matters, including the origin of easth's animals.

    If you say there is not an exhaustive explanation then I would agree. Perhaps and exhaustive explanation of even the existence of water or dirt could easily occupy many books. But as far as a concise and economical explanation made as near universally accessable as possible, there is no book quite like the Bible.

    Read it before you leave this earth.

    So the existence of life is economically and conscisely told us in the Bible. It is told us not exhautlively in technical details. It is told us as much as we need to comprehend it in relation to His purposes.
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