16 Nov 05
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
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Does a literal interpreation of the Bible require one to believe that Jesus rose bodily from the earth, upwards into the sky, and became hidden among the clouds? What, literally, would have happened next if, say, it hadn't been a cloudy day and his entire ascencsion could be observed unobscured? Would it have been an instantaneous disappearance, or would he have continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesEither the latter, or Jesus would've chosen a cloudy day.
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
Better still, He's God - so He'd just make the cloud appear.
In any case, there was a cloud.
16 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerWhy do you suppose he'd want to obscure his transition into heaven?
Either the latter, or Jesus would've chosen a cloudy day.
Better still, He's God - so He'd just make the cloud appear.
In any case, there was a cloud.
Have you ever seen the South Park episode in which Jesus turns water into wine?
"Um, turn around."
16 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesWhat do you mean "That wasn't his style"?
Since when was Jesus into drama and effect? That wasn't his style. Never was.
Turning water into wine, feeding thousands with a handful of loaves, healing the lame, the blind, lepers...
He even brought people back from the dead.
I'd say Jesus knew how to hold an audience when He wanted to.
EDIT: Did you get what you were looking for? Or is this just an elaborate plan to get your customary comment in about the Pope?
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerYou think he did those things as a showman? I thought he encouraged those he helped to "tell no one" so as not to make a spectacle out of himself.
Turning water into wine, feeding thousands with a handful of loaves, healing the lame, the blind, lepers...
He even brought people back from the dead.
I'd say Jesus knew how to hold an audience when He wanted to.
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThat was before His Resurrection. After His Resurrection, he explicitly asked his apostles to go tell the world what they had learned and seen.
You think he did those things as a showman? I thought he encouraged those he helped to "tell no one" so as not to make a spectacle out of himself.
17 Nov 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesYou could say that a literal interpretation could mean that, however the same description could also be used in describing one of David Copperfields magic tricks where he floats up & disappears in a cloud of smoke.
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
17 Nov 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesA belief in the literal Ascension entails the notion that heaven is up,
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
or in outerspace or something. Recall that the Jews believed that
the earth was flat with a dome on top and that the heavens were
just beyond the firmament. In a model such as that, up is a
definitive direction. But on a sphere, up is simply 'out;' going up
from New York will bring you an entirely different place than going up
from Tokyo.
So, let's say we simplify things and say Jesus ascended 'out there'
rather than 'up there' (since up there makes no sense).
Then what? He cast a magic protective shield over Him to protect
Himself from the atmosphere, then a magic protective space suit,
then what?
Did He fire light years away until He got to the edge of the universe?
Did He 'teleport' to outside the bounds of the universe? Did He
just disappear and appear in Heaven?
It's simply not reasonable to accept a literal understanding of the
Ascension because it requires a literal understanding of the flat earth.
It requires that you believe that Heaven is 'up' when we know that
even to say 'up' has no meaning in the universe.
Nemesio
17 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Nemesio
A belief in the literal Ascension entails the notion that heaven is up,
or in outerspace or something. Recall that the Jews believed that
the earth was flat with a dome on top and that the heavens were
just beyond the firmament. In a model such as that, up is a
definitive direction. But on a sphere, up is simply 'out;' going up
from New York will ...[text shortened]... aven is 'up' when we know that
even to say 'up' has no meaning in the universe.
Nemesio
N: It's simply not reasonable to accept a literal understanding of the Ascension because it requires a literal understanding of the flat earth. It requires that you believe that Heaven is 'up' when we know that even to say 'up' has no meaning in the universe.
But 'up' has a definite meaning relative to an observer (in this case, the apostles) in a non-zero gravitational field. And 'up' refers to the direction of movement for Jesus ("taken up" ) rather than Heaven itself in the verse mentioned. So, essentially:
1. Jesus goes up.
2. Cloud hides him from apostles.
3. (He somehow makes it to Heaven).
In any case, a Flat Earth model is not the only one that supports a Heaven being 'up' relative to observers on Earth. The Ptolemaic-Aristotelian model will also do.
17 Nov 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIt is as literal as you read it, that's what actually happened, I don't think they would have said he went up, if he actually went side-ways, or downwards into the ground.
Acts 1:9-11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
and the up being mentioned here is sky-wards.
anyways, concerning what would the people have seen, is irrelevant as nobody saw but the clouds did the will of god, and blocked the view of man into heaven.
17 Nov 05
Originally posted by zombiesI don't think they would have said he went up, if he actually went side-ways, or downwards into the ground.
It is as literal as you read it, that's what actually happened, I don't think they would have said he went up, if he actually went side-ways, or downwards into the ground.
and the [b]up being mentioned here is sky-wards.
anyways, concerning what would the people have seen, is irrelevant as nobody saw but the clouds did the will of god, and blocked the view of man into heaven.[/b]
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