1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Nov '05 21:55
    Acts 1:9-11

    After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

    -------------------------------------

    Does a literal interpreation of the Bible require one to believe that Jesus rose bodily from the earth, upwards into the sky, and became hidden among the clouds? What, literally, would have happened next if, say, it hadn't been a cloudy day and his entire ascencsion could be observed unobscured? Would it have been an instantaneous disappearance, or would he have continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
  2. London
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    16 Nov '05 21:58
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Acts 1:9-11

    After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
    Either the latter, or Jesus would've chosen a cloudy day.

    Better still, He's God - so He'd just make the cloud appear.

    In any case, there was a cloud.
  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Nov '05 21:591 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Either the latter, or Jesus would've chosen a cloudy day.

    Better still, He's God - so He'd just make the cloud appear.

    In any case, there was a cloud.
    Why do you suppose he'd want to obscure his transition into heaven?

    Have you ever seen the South Park episode in which Jesus turns water into wine?

    "Um, turn around."
  4. London
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    16 Nov '05 22:00
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Why do you suppose he'd want to obscure his transition into heaven?

    Have you ever seen the South Park episode in which Jesus turns water into wine?

    "Um, turn around."
    Who knows - dramatic effect, maybe?

    No, I haven't seen the SP episode.
  5. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Nov '05 22:021 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Who knows - dramatic effect, maybe?
    Since when was Jesus into drama and effect? That wasn't his style. Never was. I think you might be confusing him with the Pope.
  6. London
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    16 Nov '05 22:061 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Since when was Jesus into drama and effect? That wasn't his style. Never was.
    What do you mean "That wasn't his style"?

    Turning water into wine, feeding thousands with a handful of loaves, healing the lame, the blind, lepers...

    He even brought people back from the dead.

    I'd say Jesus knew how to hold an audience when He wanted to.

    EDIT: Did you get what you were looking for? Or is this just an elaborate plan to get your customary comment in about the Pope?
  7. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Nov '05 22:12
    Originally posted by lucifershammer


    Turning water into wine, feeding thousands with a handful of loaves, healing the lame, the blind, lepers...

    He even brought people back from the dead.

    I'd say Jesus knew how to hold an audience when He wanted to.
    You think he did those things as a showman? I thought he encouraged those he helped to "tell no one" so as not to make a spectacle out of himself.
  8. London
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    16 Nov '05 22:20
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    You think he did those things as a showman? I thought he encouraged those he helped to "tell no one" so as not to make a spectacle out of himself.
    That was before His Resurrection. After His Resurrection, he explicitly asked his apostles to go tell the world what they had learned and seen.
  9. R.I.P.
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    17 Nov '05 00:03
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Acts 1:9-11

    After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
    You could say that a literal interpretation could mean that, however the same description could also be used in describing one of David Copperfields magic tricks where he floats up & disappears in a cloud of smoke.
  10. Standard memberNemesio
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    17 Nov '05 00:13
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Acts 1:9-11

    After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
    A belief in the literal Ascension entails the notion that heaven is up,
    or in outerspace or something. Recall that the Jews believed that
    the earth was flat with a dome on top and that the heavens were
    just beyond the firmament. In a model such as that, up is a
    definitive direction. But on a sphere, up is simply 'out;' going up
    from New York will bring you an entirely different place than going up
    from Tokyo.

    So, let's say we simplify things and say Jesus ascended 'out there'
    rather than 'up there' (since up there makes no sense).

    Then what? He cast a magic protective shield over Him to protect
    Himself from the atmosphere, then a magic protective space suit,
    then what?

    Did He fire light years away until He got to the edge of the universe?
    Did He 'teleport' to outside the bounds of the universe? Did He
    just disappear and appear in Heaven?

    It's simply not reasonable to accept a literal understanding of the
    Ascension because it requires a literal understanding of the flat earth.
    It requires that you believe that Heaven is 'up' when we know that
    even to say 'up' has no meaning in the universe.

    Nemesio
  11. Felicific Forest
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    17 Nov '05 01:22
    .

    Anything a Jumbo jet can do God can do better.
  12. London
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    17 Nov '05 10:221 edit
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    A belief in the literal Ascension entails the notion that heaven is up,
    or in outerspace or something. Recall that the Jews believed that
    the earth was flat with a dome on top and that the heavens were
    just beyond the firmament. In a model such as that, up is a
    definitive direction. But on a sphere, up is simply 'out;' going up
    from New York will ...[text shortened]... aven is 'up' when we know that
    even to say 'up' has no meaning in the universe.

    Nemesio
    N: It's simply not reasonable to accept a literal understanding of the Ascension because it requires a literal understanding of the flat earth. It requires that you believe that Heaven is 'up' when we know that even to say 'up' has no meaning in the universe.


    But 'up' has a definite meaning relative to an observer (in this case, the apostles) in a non-zero gravitational field. And 'up' refers to the direction of movement for Jesus ("taken up" ) rather than Heaven itself in the verse mentioned. So, essentially:

    1. Jesus goes up.
    2. Cloud hides him from apostles.
    3. (He somehow makes it to Heaven).

    In any case, a Flat Earth model is not the only one that supports a Heaven being 'up' relative to observers on Earth. The Ptolemaic-Aristotelian model will also do.
  13. Felicific Forest
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    17 Nov '05 10:531 edit
    .


    😕
  14. Tsandi
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    17 Nov '05 10:58
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Acts 1:9-11

    After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from ...[text shortened]... ve continued to rise indefinitely, out of the very atmosphere and into the cosmological heavens?
    It is as literal as you read it, that's what actually happened, I don't think they would have said he went up, if he actually went side-ways, or downwards into the ground.
    and the up being mentioned here is sky-wards.

    anyways, concerning what would the people have seen, is irrelevant as nobody saw but the clouds did the will of god, and blocked the view of man into heaven.
  15. Felicific Forest
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    17 Nov '05 10:59
    Originally posted by zombies
    It is as literal as you read it, that's what actually happened, I don't think they would have said he went up, if he actually went side-ways, or downwards into the ground.
    and the [b]up being mentioned here is sky-wards.


    anyways, concerning what would the people have seen, is irrelevant as nobody saw but the clouds did the will of god, and blocked the view of man into heaven.[/b]
    I don't think they would have said he went up, if he actually went side-ways, or downwards into the ground.


    😵
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