Originally posted by jaywillYour dead brother is almost certainly going to hell. You implied (I don't think you explicitly said / acknowledged it) that he was homosexual. After all, we all know that AIDS is a punishment from God for homosexuals, right? Since homosexuality is a sin, he's off to the hot place. But don't worry - you'll see him soon.
Concerning my brother. I said nothing to you about his eternal destiny. What did I say about him going to hell? I said nothing concerning his eternal salvation.
I said nothing about his destiny in that regards as to whether I knew it or did not know it.
Yes you are a biggot against Christians. But it is Okay. In the last two thousand years one more petty little bigot won't make much difference. Do the best you can.
You're not just quite the one-dimensional puppet I initially thought. I'm going to have fun with you.
By the way, why did you quit on our coversation regarding the evolution of religion? Did you run out of personal attacks? You certainly weren't debating anything with me.
Originally posted by jaywillWas that a 'yes' or a 'no' to my question?
I think that some of us should satisfy our thirst by learning to experience Christ, regardless of your vote.
I think that some of us should learn to walk by the indwelling Holy Spirit in our marriage relationships. And that regardless of how we vote.
My focus is on the experience of Christ in preparation for the kingdom of God to come. My hope is ...[text shortened]... an opinion.
I would not be in favor of any mob violence or evil acts against gay people.
This relates to the issue of tolerance, one which Jesus evidently
demonstrated in abundance.
You see, I think the 'simple way to experience Christ' is deeply related
to acting Christ-like. Since I think tolerance is 'Christ-like' (and the
Synoptic Gospels, in particular, bear this out), that would be a first step.
So, do you feel that adultery, which is not illegal, is encouraged by the
US Government?
Nemesio
3 edits
Originally posted by NemesioThe question about whether adultery is encouraged by the US government I would answer, in some respects yes. But in some respects no.
Was that a 'yes' or a 'no' to my question?
This relates to the issue of tolerance, one which Jesus evidently
demonstrated in abundance.
You see, I think the 'simple way to experience Christ' is deeply related
to acting Christ-like. Since I think tolerance is 'Christ-like' (and the
Synoptic Gospels, in particular, bear this out), that would be a f ...[text shortened]... eel that adultery, which is not illegal, is encouraged by the
US Government?
Nemesio
What Jesus taught was to abide in Him - "Abide in Me and I in you" (John 15:4)
He did not teach to imitate Him but to abide IN Him.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)
To build up God's kingdom we must abide in Christ and He must abide in us. Apart from Him we can do nothing. Apart from Him all that we do do will amount to nothing. You can love apart from Him. You can be kind apart from Him. You can be tolerant apart from Him. But whatever you do apart from Him, as far as God's will and God's kingdom is concerned, will amount to nothing.
"Abide in Me and I in you" does not mean imitate the example of Jesus. It does not mean think about what Jesus would do. It means firstly that Jesus is alive. It means secondly that the alive Jesus is a realm and a sphere into which a person can enter and live. It means thirdly that if we live in Him He in turn will live in us. That which is done through abiding in Him and He in us will account for the will of God. That has some worth to God.
To build up your human society you may live as a man apart from Christ. But that is not the eternal matter that will last. He who does the will of God abides forever. The world is passing away and its governments.
The Synoptic gospels describe the life that abides in Christ. The gospel of John shows the WAY that life is lived, by abiding in the resurrected Christ and letting Him abide in us.
In the most real sense Jesus lives His life on earth again. But this time He lives it within the ones who abides in Him and He in them. He lived an individual life in Himself on earth. Now from the resurrection He lives a life within the people who enter into Him. He lives again from within them who abide in Him. So He is with us until the consummation of the age:
"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age" (Matthew 28:20)
Paul confirms that he lives in oneness with the resurrected and living Christ Who is His life. He will one day visibly return and then the disciples will appear with Him in glory:
"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory" (Col. 3:4)
Don't miss all the fun !
Originally posted by scottishinnzYou are ranting vehementally.
Your dead brother is almost certainly going to hell. You implied (I don't think you explicitly said / acknowledged it) that he was homosexual. After all, we all know that AIDS is a punishment from God for homosexuals, right? Since homosexuality is a sin, he's off to the hot place. But don't worry - you'll see him soon.
You're not just quite the o ...[text shortened]... ? Did you run out of personal attacks? You certainly weren't debating anything with me.
What I did write was that Paul listed a number of things and said that those who practice such things would not inherit the kingdom of God.
You assume that inherit the kingdom of God is synonomous with have eternal life. That is your inadaquate understanding of the New Testament. That is not me saying that because my brother died of HIV complications that I know he is to perish eternally.
I do not know the eternal state of my deceased brother. I suspect that he is saved based upon things which he told me before he died. When you are on a sick bed you have a long time to contemplate your choices in life.
It is very easy to be forgiven of your sins and granted the gift of eternal life. Many who have no time left to be transformed do have time to be saved. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was granted eternal salvation.
So you should not assume anything about the eternal destiny of my brother. You may want to make God out to be harder than the Bible makes Him out to be. It is easy to believe in Jesus and be saved from your sins.
It is a life long matter to live a kingdom life in sanctification and transformation.
So, I said nothing about my brother's eternal destiny. Don't presume to put words in my mouth concerning it.
Originally posted by jaywillPrays JESUS! I am noo CHRISTion. You ar my bigg bruther in CHRIST. I look in two you too sho me the rite way.
Concerning my brother. I said nothing to you about his eternal destiny. What did I say about him going to hell? I said nothing concerning his eternal salvation.
I said nothing about his destiny in that regards as to whether I knew it or did not know it.
Yes you are a biggot against Christians. But it is Okay. In the last two thousand years one more petty little bigot won't make much difference. Do the best you can.
My mom tuld me never say bad names two peeple I dont like. Iz it CHRISTion too do it.
You are greet mentour two me.
On CHRIST.
Tel
Originally posted by jaywill
The question about whether adultery is encouraged by the US government I would answer, in some respects yes. But in some respects no.
How equivocal! Well, then why would voting to legalize gay marriage
only and specifically encourage gay marriage if voting to keep
adultery legal is 'some respects yes, some respects no?'
Help me to understand this, because it sure sounds arbitrary to me.
He did not teach to imitate Him but to abide IN Him.
The Greek word which is translated 'abide' in this passage is menein
which means to remain or to stay.
So, since Jesus is no longer physically here, what do you suppose this
means? Having Jesus in your heart and remaining with Him. What do
you think that means except to do your best to bring Christ into
the world?
Well, what does THAT mean except imitation? I mean, how are
you 'remaining in Jesus' if you aren't doing your best to be His proxy
here on earth?
Either you think Jesus was tolerant or not. Either you think that Jesus
would strive to make artificial and earthly laws to force people to
behave a certain way, or you think that Jesus allowed people to make
their own decisions freely and uninhibited by earthly limitation, guided
instead by prayerful appeal to their own conscience.
What do the Gospels tell you about this?
And, I'll ask you again: what better (or simpler!) way can you think
of to bring Christ into the world than to strive to be His representative?
Paul confirms that he lives in oneness with the resurrected and living Christ Who is His life. He will one day visibly return and then the disciples will appear with Him in glory:
[b]"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory" (Col. 3:4)
Don't miss all the fun ![/b]
Your final comment demonstrates rather a non-Christlike hubris. That
Christians will one day 'appear with Him in glory' should be no motivation
whatsover, for it is self-indulgent and egotistical. The greatest among
the Christians is the one who serves the lowly and the poor, not seeking
(like the hypocritical Pharisee) for praise and recognition of his fellow
man or God, but (like the widow and her few copper pieces, or the tax
collecter who dared not raise his eyes to heaven) motivated by a love
of what is right -- loving sacrifice for those in need.
Nemesio
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioYour second comment on abiding in Christ was of great interest to me. And I will devote this reply mostly to that matter.
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]The question about whether adultery is encouraged by the US government I would answer, in some respects yes. But in some respects no.
How equivocal! Well, then why would voting to legalize gay marriage
only and specifically encourage gay marriage if voting to keep
adultery legal is 'some respects yes, vated by a love
of what is right -- loving sacrifice for those in need.
Nemesio[/b]
For Christ to live in our hearts is not sentimental speech. It is divine and mystical reality. We have a human spirit which in regeneration is united to the Holy Spirit:
First a man must be regenerated, born again by having the Holy Spirit imparted into thier human spirit:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)
The capital S Spirit in this verse is God Himself in Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit. And the small s spirit is the innermost being of man. This spirit is like an organ specifically created in us to contact God.
When the deadened and damaged human spirit is born of the Holy Spirit the two are "organically" joined to be one mingled spirit:
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Christ the Spirit can be joined in "organic" union with our spirit. When He does the Lord is with our spirit:
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you" (2 Tim. 4:22)
As He is one with our spirit and joined as one spirit with our spirit He bears witness with our spirit that we are in a life relationship with God:
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Rom 8:16)
Since the resurrected Lord is with our spirit the enjoyment of His enabling and His empowering is also with our spirit. This enjoyment, this enabling and empowering is called the grace of the Lord:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Phil. 4:23)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen" (Gal. 6:18)
This innermost mingled dwelling place in us where the Lord abides Paul also calls "the inner man". And he prayed that the regenerated Christians would be strengthened into that realm:
"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father ... that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man" (Eph. 3:14,16)
We have an innermost being, our human spirit. Christ as the Holy Spirit joins to that in the born again experience. Then having been spiritually born we need to be strengthened to walk and live from that realm. Because we are not use to it, we need to be strengthened into our regenerated "inner man".
This is also termed by Paul as setting the mind on the spirit:
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6)
The key is this component of our being called our human spirit. It is deeper than our soul. There Christ in regeneration abides in us and we must learn to abide in that realm.
John told the disciples that they knew that Christ abides in them because of the Spirit which they had received:
"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us" (1 John 3:24)
This is Christ abiding in us who have been born again. And this Christ the Spirit is the pledge and the foretaste of the coming fuller enjoyment of God's nature dispensed into our being. This Spirit is a seal sealing us for the day of full redemption of our bodies:
" ... you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired posession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:14)
Receiving the Holy Spirit is therefore our assurety of the future glory. He is our inner witness and evidence that we abide in Christ.
Now the missing all the fun comment:
I was being a little light. But it is not unlike the call of the Spirit and the Bride to come and drink the water of life in Revelation:
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17)
So indeed. Do not miss all the enjoyment which the Triune God has secured for us.
Originally posted by jaywillI go to church. I read the Bible. I even went to divinity school. I read your post carefully, but I honestly have no idea what you are saying. I will confess to being a slow learner, but doesn't it make more sense just to acknowledge that Jesus loves you.
Your second comment on abiding in Christ was of great interest to me. And I will devote this reply mostly to that matter.
For Christ to live in our hearts is not sentimental speech. It is divine and mystical reality. We have a human spirit which in regeneration is united to the Holy Spirit:
First a man must be regenerated, born again by having the H ...[text shortened]... t miss all the enjoyment which the Triune God has secured for us.
Originally posted by kirksey957Yes Jesus loves us is very basic. And we never graduate from that love.
I go to church. I read the Bible. I even went to divinity school. I read your post carefully, but I honestly have no idea what you are saying. I will confess to being a slow learner, but doesn't it make more sense just to acknowledge that Jesus loves you.
It is a great expression of His love that He dispenses Himself into us to be our life. He loves us and not only died for us. He loves us and gives Himself to us that we could live a life in oneness with Him.
We can live Christ. We can live out Christ. We can live through the living Christ and allow Christ to live through us.
How can we live Christ? We can live Christ because Christ in resurrection became a life giving Spirit:
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
When He said that He came that we might have life (John 10:10) and have life abundantly, ultimately He means that He gives Himself to us in His resurrected and pneumatic state as "the life giving Spirit" to be joined to our human spirit.
God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into man that man may live in union with God.
Pray over all the verses which I quoted. Read them prayerfully with thanksgiving. The Lord will give you more understanding.
Originally posted by jaywillYou just way way too deep for me. Pray that I will get more understanding. I'm a simple soul tring to love Jesus.
Yes Jesus loves us is very basic. And we never graduate from that love.
It is a great expression of His love that He dispenses Himself into us to be our life. He loves us and not only died for us. He loves us and gives Himself to us that we could live a life in oneness with Him.
We can live Christ. We can live out Christ. We can live through the livi ...[text shortened]... quoted. Read them prayerfully with thanksgiving. The Lord will give you more understanding.
Originally posted by kirksey957Don't worry about deepness. If your capacity is at the level it is, that is wonderful.
You just way way too deep for me. Pray that I will get more understanding. I'm a simple soul tring to love Jesus.
Loving the Lord Jesus is the way to go on. No other way is more prevailing than loving Jesus and giving Him first place in every and all things.
Knowledge shall pass away. But love never fails.
"Lord Jesus we love you. Lord Jesus we really love you. We love you because you first loved us. Amen."
Don't hesitate if there is something I said that you really would like me to break down and make as clear as I can.
Originally posted by jaywillGood Lord. I hope this isn't just the tip of your iceberg.
Your second comment on abiding in Christ was of great interest to me. And I will devote this reply mostly to that matter.
For Christ to live in our hearts is not sentimental speech. It is divine and mystical reality. We have a human spirit which in regeneration is united to the Holy Spirit:
First a man must be regenerated, born again by having the H ...[text shortened]... t miss all the enjoyment which the Triune God has secured for us.
Originally posted by NemesioThis relates to the issue of tolerance, one which Jesus evidently
Was that a 'yes' or a 'no' to my question?
This relates to the issue of tolerance, one which Jesus evidently
demonstrated in abundance.
You see, I think the 'simple way to experience Christ' is deeply related
to acting Christ-like. Since I think tolerance is 'Christ-like' (and the
Synoptic Gospels, in particular, bear this out), that would be a f ...[text shortened]... eel that adultery, which is not illegal, is encouraged by the
US Government?
Nemesio
demonstrated in abundance.
Hey! I found a passage that speaks to both topics. Let's see what Jesus said in His own words, from Matthew 5:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
Man oh man, that sure sounds like a whole mess of toleration, don't it?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou will notice that Jesus does not say that the government should cut off a person's
Man oh man, that sure sounds like a whole mess of toleration, don't it?
hand, because the sin is not in the action, but in the heart.
That is, if a lusty, adulterer gets his hand chopped off because he refuses to stop playing with
himself, all that has happened was that you've stopped the man from outwardly sinning. But,
as you well know, it is the inside of the cup that matters -- that man will still be sinning in his
heart every time he sees a hot woman walk by, even if he can't play with himself after.
Indeed, Jesus encourages that the person cut off his own hand, that is, make the change
from within -- kill the sin in the heart -- that the outward expressions of sin will cease to exist.
Is it extreme? Yes. Is it motivated from the individual and not the government or other
external, earthly forces? Yes. Does it contradict tolerance? No.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioApparently I misuderstood the direction of your argument. Sometimes my fingers start typing before my mind has had the opportunity to join the game. Forgive my intrusion.
You will notice that Jesus does not say that the government should cut off a person's
hand, because the sin is not in the action, but in the heart.
That is, if a lusty, adulterer gets his hand chopped off because he refuses to stop playing with
himself, all that has happened was that you've stopped the man from outwardly sinning. But,
a ...[text shortened]... ment or other
external, earthly forces? Yes. Does it contradict tolerance? No.
Nemesio