Originally posted by LemonJelloThey don't, probably just in part because they lack justification.
The problem is that you and Freaky and others continue to act like your beliefs here constitute knowledge. They don't, probably just in part because they lack justification. You still have some other avenues for your holding these beliefs -- maybe utilitarian or pragmatic reasons or.... Whatever these alternate reasons may be, you should view and prese ...[text shortened]... ake a cue from Rev. Kirksey (page 14), who I think had a reasonable take on your lectures.
What kind of justification? Internal or external? If the latter, what standards of justification do you hold them up to? Why should those standards be accepted?
I hate to break it to you, but the Bible really doesn't have much to "teach" us.
Even purely as a collection of historical documents, the Bible has a lot to teach us about Judaeo-Christian culture and thinking.
I'm sorry, but if you're going to berate people for confusing belief and knowledge, the least you can do is refrain from doing so yourself.
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Originally posted by lucifershammerExternal. There's no internalist justification for these types of beliefs. As I said, there may be other reasons for adopting these sorts of beliefs, but then they should recognize their real motives -- they certainly aren't bearers of knowledge.
[b]They don't, probably just in part because they lack justification.
What kind of justification? Internal or external? If the latter, what standards of justification do you hold them up to? Why should those standards be accepted?
I hate to break it to you, but the Bible really doesn't have much to "teach" us.
Even purely as a col or confusing belief and knowledge, the least you can do is refrain from doing so yourself.[/b]
Even purely as a collection of historical documents, the Bible has a lot to teach us about Judaeo-Christian culture and thinking.
So? Such culture and thinking is of course founded on the Bible in many respects. The point is that the Bible, as a moral text, is inferior to even an elementary survey text on ethics.
EDIT: OK, I see "historical" there. That's not my point, and you know that. jaywill et al. are interested in using the Bible also as a guide for how to live. If you really want me to make the implicit explicit, I'll add the phrase on: the Bible really doesn't have much to teach us about morality. Better?
Originally posted by LemonJelloI have 3 short things to say in challenge:
External. There's no internalist justification for these types of beliefs. As I said, there may be other reasons for adopting these sorts of beliefs, but then they should recognize their real motives -- they certainly aren't bearers of knowledge.
[b]Even purely as a collection of historical documents, the Bible has a lot to teach us about Judaeo-Chri ...[text shortened]... t is that the Bible, as a moral text, is inferior to even an elementary survey text on ethics.
1) Inferior? Well heres a proposition: You do your best to present these inferior and contradictory beliefs on ethics, and I will do my best to answer them.
2) But before you do, you need to realize that you are guilty of the same thing that you condemn to others. The Bible, according to Christians, is the absolute basis for ethics and morality. In order for you to make a claim of inferiority, you must have your own basis of ethics and morality. Please present your basis and reasoning for you basis before condemning others.
3) I would be much obliged. I'm not looking to quibble over inane topics, but I will be part of a calm, coherent discussion if you are.
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Originally posted by jaywill
Through faith Christ can make His home in your heart.
What does having Christ in your heart inspire? That is, what will a person who has
Christ in his/her heart do (not feel, not think) differently?
Initially He comes to the heart in the born again experience. One only needs to be born once. One cannot be unborn again. And one only need to be born spiritually once as one only needs to be born naturally once.
For the time being, let's assume that you, jaywill, are born again. Can anyone else tell
definitively if you are, or do we have to take your word for it?
Nemesio
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Originally posted by KellyJayIt's a pretty reasonable conclusion. Even if you deny the 'divineness' of the Gospel texts,
Really, why is that?
Kelly
the notion of Baptismal initiation is recorded from the earliest of days as a requirement.
Originating from John the Baptist's reinterpretation of mikvah purification rituals, it's
demonstrable that, from the earliest sources, Baptism was an essential part of this new
Jewish sect which came to be known as Christianity. Even Josephus mentions it in his
Antiquities:
18.5.2 Now some of the Jews thought that the destructions of Herod's army came from God, and
that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for
Herod killed him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to
righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that
the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the
putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing
still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.
As you can see Josephus (non-Christian) understands St John the Baptist's actions through his
Jewish, purification lens. He makes the clarification about St John the Baptist's baptisms as
not for the remission of sins because of the debate going on in the early Christian communities
about what baptism meant. St John's followers didn't understand baptism the way that Jesus's
followers did. St John, for whom Josephus shows an unusual sympathy, receives little
criticism (as opposed to the various Messiah figures mentioned), but his baptisms are just extensions
or reinterpretations of contemporary Jewish purifications. Josephus would have no need to make
such a distinction if there weren't existing confusion about what baptisms meant.
St John the Baptist's understanding of baptism is in contrast with the early Christian documents.
For example the Didache reads:
Now about baptism, baptize this way: after first uttering all of these things, baptize "into
the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy Spirit" in running water. But if you do not
have running water, baptize in other water. Now if you are not able to do so in cold water, do it in
warm water. Now if you don't have either, pour water three times on the head, "into the name of
the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit." Now before the ritual cleansing, the baptizer
and the one being baptized should fast, and any others who are able. Now you will give word for
the one who is being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.
Later in the document, it indicates that no unbaptized person shall partake of the agape
which was a central element of early Christian worship.
Naturally, I'm inclined to think that the earliest existing manual for Christian practice (written
probably +/- 10 years from 100 CE, i.e., within the first generation of Christians after the composition
of the Gospels) are likely to have a pretty good handle on what Christians ought to be doing in
order to be considered Christians.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioDo you have scripture that supports this position?
It's a pretty reasonable conclusion. Even if you deny the 'divineness' of the Gospel texts,
the notion of Baptismal initiation is recorded from the earliest of days as a requirement.
Originating from John the Baptist's reinterpretation of mikvah purification rituals, it's
demonstrable that, from the earliest sources, Baptism was an essential part of thi ...[text shortened]... ristians ought to be doing in
order to be considered Christians.
Nemesio
Kelly
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Originally posted by Nemesio[/b] Two questions you ask:
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]Through faith Christ can make His home in your heart.
What does having Christ in your heart inspire? That is, what will a person who has
Christ in his/her heart do (not feel, not think) differently?
Initially He comes to the heart in the born again experience. One only needs to be born once. One c else tell
[b]definitively if you are, or do we have to take your word for it?
Nemesio[/b]
1.) What does having Christ in your heart inspire?
It inspires quite a lot. Namely the transformation of your soul. However such transformation is dependent upon your cooperation.
But one of the first things the dispensing of Christ to one's heart inpires is the need and desire to be with others who understand what you have gone through. You will seek others who can understand because your worldly friends will no longer understand you in some regards. The life that has been implanted within you longs for the fellowship of others who are experiencing the same thing. As John aptly told us:
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God, and everyone who loves Him who has begotten loves him also who has been begotten of Him" (1 John 5:1)
The one begotten of God through loves the begetting Father. And she also loves the others who have been begotten by the begetting Father. You are drawn to others who are born of God.
In my case I had to tell someone. It doesn't take long for your friends to right you off as having become "religious." So you will seek someone who understands. Others who have been begotten of God can understand. You at first feel like a stranger in a wonderful strange land.
Your other question is can anyone definitely tell if I personally am regenerated? Do you have to take my word for it?
You don't have to take my word for it. But if you wanted to be rigorous about it you would ask several other Christians what they think about me. Of course this means you would have to take their word for it too.
But I think others who claim to have met the Lord Jesus could testify whether or not they thought I had the same experience.
You see with faith there is always the little possibility that " maybe it is not true". I think at every stage of the road of faith there is always the door out into disbelief if you want to doubt. Once you learn that that's the way the program works you learn to live with it.
From Genesis to Revelation there is always the possibility "But what if it really isn't so?" This persistent little doubt builds character and actually strengthens faith.
While a number of other issues have been spawned off of this thread, for my part I desire to stay close to my heading which is:
"A Simple Way to Experience Christ"
I will try to make my comments related to that subject.
There are a number of times in the Bible where simplicity was the key to the enjoyment of God's salvation. One case that comes to mind is Naamon the leper in 2 Kings 5.
This is the beautiful record of how a powerful Syrian ruler traveled to Israel to get the prophet to heal him of his desease. He expected the Jewish prophet to come out of the house with great fanfare and pomp to do this spectacular showy healing. Elisha didn't even come out of the house to meet him. He sent word by his servant that he should go bath in the river Jordon seven times.
Naaman's pride was insulted and he went away in a huff. But heeding the cooler headed advice of one of his servants he decided to give it a try. And of course God healed him of his lepersy.
I have said calling on the name of Jesus is a simple way to contact the Lord Jesus.
Some will scoff at this and go away in a huff. It can't be that simple as just calling out "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus come into me. Lord Jesus I receive you" they would argue. Surely something more sophisticated will honor them.
But sometimes God wants you just to humble yourself to the simple and effect reaching out to Him. Just to call Jesus "Lord" is a big step. Your own ego is dethroned from its unlawful place as the center of the world. And the "Lord Jesus Christ" is allowed His place as your center.
The comfort at allowing Jesus Christ His rightful place as the center and circumference of life is wonderful. "No one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3)
Calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus cleanse me of all sin. Lord Jesus I love you" is like Naaman's bathing in the river Jordon. The healing will take place.
Originally posted by lucifershammerI'd add the 'Great Commission' at the end of St Matthew's Gospel, as well.
Read the passage of Jesus's baptism just before his meeting with Nicodemus (in John's Gospel). And remember that the Bible didn't have chapters for several centuries - people read them as an integrated whole.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by LemonJelloInternalist Justistifications:
External. There's no internalist justification for these types of beliefs. As I said, there may be other reasons for adopting these sorts of beliefs, but then they should recognize their real motives -- they certainly aren't bearers of knowledge.
[b]Even purely as a collection of historical documents, the Bible has a lot to teach us about Judaeo-Chri dd the phrase on: the Bible really doesn't have much to teach us about morality. Better?
"He who believes into Me, as the SCripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who beleived into HIm were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified" (John 7:38,39)
"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us" (1 John 3:24)
"And as for you, the anointing which you have received from HIm abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him" (1 John 2:27)
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba, Father!" (Rom. 8:14)
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Rom 8:6)
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom. 8:16)
"There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death" (Ro. 8:1,2)
"And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." (Rom. 5:5)
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)
" ... and no one takes your joy away from you" (John 16:22)
"But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of reality, who proceeds from the Father, He will testify concerning Me" (John 15:26)
"... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know HIm; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you,
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you ..." (John14:17,18)
" ... and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21)
" ... you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:14)
"He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge" (2 Cor. 1:22)
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge" (2 Cor. 5:5)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14)
Originally posted by jaywillYou didn't answer my questions directly.
Two questions you ask:
1.) What does having Christ in your heart inspire?
It inspires quite a lot. Namely the transformation of your soul. However such transformation is dependent upon your cooperation.
But one of the first things the dispensing of Christ to one's heart inpires is the need and desire to be with others who understan ...[text shortened]... so?" This persistent little doubt builds character and actually strengthens faith.[/b]
I asked specifically what does Christ having in your heart inspire,
specifically what does that Christ-inspired person DO differently.
It would seem to me that one who is Christ-inspired will behave
differently than one who is not. What is the content and nature of
that behavior?
Let me clarify my second question. Let's say you are invisible and
inaudible and observing a person on the street. Let's say you can
follow this person, but not interact. What about this person will allow
you to conclude that s/he is regenerated (your word...)? Given this
situation, can you ever draw this conclusion with certainty about this
other person?
Nemesio
Originally posted by KellyJayNothing in Scripture contradicts this conclusion, and the behavior of
Do you have scripture that supports this position?
the earliest Christians support it. Do you think that the first generation
of Christians had already utterly screwed up what their Rabbi, Teacher
and Messiah had told them, and were baptizing people in water in the
name of the Trinity totally in error? Or is it more likely that, given their
proximity to Jesus's teachings, and given that His primary followers
(including His brother James, leader of the Jerusalem Church) were
their mentors?
Nemesio