A small request

I would ask members of this forum to henceforth follow my name with "(PBUH)" when using it in your posts.

For example, ahosney might say, "I have reconsidered the evidence, and I have found that Dr. S (PBUH) was right in claiming that Islamic law fails to respect a variety of human rights."

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I would ask members of this forum to henceforth follow my name with "(PBUH)" when using it in your posts.

For example, ahosney might say, "I have reconsidered the evidence, and I have found that Dr. S (PBUH) was right in claiming that Islamic law fails to respect a variety of human rights."

Dr. Scribbles (PBUH) failed to show me his point, and I think he also missed the forum.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Dr. Scribbles (PBUH) failed to show me his point, and I think he also missed the forum.

Do you affirm or deny that Islamic law allows a man to beat his wife upon certain conditions?

Do you affirm or deny that under Islamic law, a criminal's family may be required to pay restitution for a criminal's act?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you affirm or deny that Islamic law allows a man to beat his wife upon certain conditions?

Putting this here doesn't make any sense. And I don't need to re answer that again.

For every one I gave a complete answer to this in the Debate forume and starting this thread here means only the Dr. Scribbles (PBUH) try to make a propaganda from nothing.

A short answer ,

As you know I'm a muslim:

I want to ask you something:

1- Do you know at what bases those scholers build their opinion?
2- Can you define the wife beating they are talking about?

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Ok I don't know if you have an answer, I don't think you have one. But Islam doesn't depend on Mulla (I don't know what does this word mean you tell me) or scholar. We only take our faith and law from what Quran and Prophet said. If it is not there then it doesn't exist.

So I will clarify this for you and for every one else here for the last time, and I will answer the two questions I asked you, but please read it all before you answer:


Wife beating in Islam:
Why?

There is a verse in Quran say:

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004.034
Translation 1:
YUSUFALI:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
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Translation 2:
PICKTHAL:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
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Translation 3:
SHAKIR:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
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I gave you 3 translation so the meaning could be close to you. Of course I read it in Arabic so I will try to make the meaning close:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

1- This verse is from Sura (Chapter) Al Nesa (Women). This Sura gives a lot of regulation about the relation between man and woman. So if you read the complete Sura, it might give you more information about woman in Islam (Of course not every thing).
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2- The verse first state the normal relation between man and woman in the family and as the man in Islam is responsible for funding his wife even if she is reach and have money. So Allah states that for this reason man is the family head. (I'm talking about the normal family).
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3- Then it talkes about a specific situation: Which is indecated in the three translations in different ways:

YUSUFALI: As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct.

PICKTHAL: As for those from whom ye fear rebellion.

SHAKIR: and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion,

The word used in Arabic for [disloyalty and ill-conduct, rebellion or desertation] is noshos. It is a situation for the wife when she is in a complete disopediance to her husband, so it means all the three meaning given by the three translations. It is not up to the husband to state that his wife in noshos, it is specified in the next verse how this happenes:

004.035

Translation 1:
YUSUFALI:

If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

Translation 2:
PICKTHAL:

And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.

Translation 3:
SHAKIR:

And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.


So both families of the wife and husband should get involved in this.
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4- The verse then gives a three step procedure for the husband to resolve this situation. And it states that if the wife returned from her disobediance than the husband don't move to the next step. The three steps are:
1 - Advice, and admonish her. This means that the husband or any other member in the family set with her and advice her. If the problem is solved then that is it.

2- Leave them in sleeping place. This is the second level. To sleep away from her. To show her that you don't like her behavior. In Sunna (the second source of Islamic law) it is defined by sleeping with her in the same room but give her your back. I'm sorry I didn't find the translation of the Hadith (What the prophet said in that) in English, I'm searching for it and I will give the source when I find.

Again if this solved the problem then that is it.

3- The third stage of this procedure is beating (which you based your whole thread about) , and this stage is reached in the extream condition when the woman continue in her "Noshos". Again Sunna defined beating as light beating , for example , using Meswak stick (Meswak stick is a small normally 5cm long 8mm thick stick used by Arabs to clean their teeth). So what is allowed is light beating by this stick. (Again I'm searching for the translation for the Hadith).
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4- Given this we can conclude the following:
a- Quran gives a complete details about the relation between man and woman in the family. You can't just pick up something and ignore the rest.

b- In normal families wife beatings is not allowed. Actually the verse clearly states that (Nessa 4.34).

c- Wife beating is that last stage of three stage procedure to resolve a situation in a family called "noshos". It is not up to you to start with it. It is the last option in the extream condition.

d- Wife beating is a third option , so it is an option, not an obligation.

e- The sunna defined it as light beating with small stick that can't hurt her. Actually there are a lot of Hadith that forbidde beating woman that cause any harm to her.

f- The so defined beating is not to hurt the woman. But to show her that she reached an extream condition in her family.

h- This is the Islamic teaching in this point. If a muslim just beated his wife because he wanted to do that, he sure not following Quran and Sunna. If he beated his wife for any reason except he reached the third stage of "Noshos" then he is not following Quran or Sunna. If he beat hurt her by any means then he is not following Quran and sunna. If any Imam or Mulla (You still need to define this) advocated another sort of wife beating other that the so retricted wife beating discussed above don't belive him and don't follow him.

g- At last , I was waiting for you to give a reference from Quran and Sunna all the way long, not to just repeat what people say. I don't care what anyone say, and no Muslim should do. It is only Quran and Sunna that Muslim should follow. If a nut came out and say Muslim should beat their wives that has nothing to do with me. He is ignorant.

If I should follow the same way then the amount of hatred I have seen here in this forume for Muslims and Islam is enough for me to Judge Christianity and the soo civilized west.

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At the end , I know you may take my words again and try to attack Islam, or to prove your point. But it doesn't matter, I showed you what I know Islam is. I'm really started to be afraid about myself and my family from the amount of hatred I have seen here. Thank you for making this possible.

Ok, then we are in agreement that under certain conditions, Islamic law permits a man to beat his wife.

I think a law that allows a man to beat his wife, regardless of the severity or motivation of the beating, fails to respect the human rights of the wife. Do you agree or disagree?

Further, the legal theory that you cite is repugnant, relying on the notion that men are custodians of women, that men have a duty to discipline women to keep them in line, and that the authority to administer a beating derives from such responsibility. Again, this fails to respect the human nature of women.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you affirm or deny that Islamic law allows a man to beat his wife upon certain conditions?

Do you affirm or deny that under Islamic law, a criminal's family may be required to pay restitution for a criminal's act?

Do you affirm or deny that under Islamic law, a criminal's family may be required to pay restitution for a criminal's act?

Yes, but

1- You didn't show me what human rights is broken here.
2- You picked up the question from a big discussion where I pointed out many issuse regarding Criminals, and Islamic law. You have to show the complete point of view first.

3- In Islamic law there is no Criminal's. The expression we use for that in Arabic is different. And it only express that a normal person that made a mistake. He will pay for his mistake and that is it. He will not be dishonored so that his life is destroied.

4- In Islamic law there are victim rights as well, So it keeps balance between the victim's and the so called Criminal (I will search for another word close to the real meaning). The criminal family will only pay if they are rich enough to do so. If not the government is responsibe for that. And I think that is found in the USA law as will.
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Another point is , who put the human rights. I think they are human as will, and you belive that Islamic law is human made as well (OF course I don't) , but in this case you are comparing human made law with human made law . So you can't say one of them is correct and the other is wrong because it is relative and culture dependant. When the human rights was made, the people in the Arabic regions were not consulted.

Do you think it is from the human right to apply laws that people from a specific country or reigion didn't choose?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Ok, then we are in agreement that under certain conditions, Islamic law permits a man to beat his wife.

I think a law that allows a man to beat his wife, regardless of the severity or motivation of the beating, fails to respect the human rights of the wife. Do you agree or disagree?

Further, the legal theory that you cite is repugnant, relying ...[text shortened]... ating derives from such responsibility. Again, this fails to respect the human nature of women.

Define wife beating as I pointed out in my post?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Define wife beating as I pointed out in my post?

A light beating using a 5cm by 8mm stick that a man might use to pick his teeth in order to communicate and correct a woman's disobedience. My claims still hold under this definition, although I'm quite sure that the Dubai court case that I cited was using a much broader definition of the term.

Do you think a woman's human rights are respected by a law that allows such a beating, especially given the legal theory from which the law derives?

Originally posted by ahosyney
The criminal family will only pay if they are rich enough to do so. If not the government is responsibe for that. And I think that is found in the USA law as will.

I assure you it's not. Our Constitution protects us from such things. The idea is ridiculous.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I would ask members of this forum to henceforth follow my name with "(PBUH)" when using it in your posts.

For example, ahosney might say, "I have reconsidered the evidence, and I have found that Dr. S (PBUH) was right in claiming that Islamic law fails to respect a variety of human rights."

DoctorScribbles (PBUH), is there an inheritently pimp culture in the nature of Islam? While I know they don't like to show any leg or, for that matter, ankle, it seems to me there is a lot of beating going on to control women. Your comments, please.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
A light beating using a 5cm by 8mm stick that a man might use to pick his teeth. My claims still hold under this definition, although I'm quite sure that the Dubai court case that I cited was using a much broader definition of the term.

Do you think a woman's human rights are respected by a law that allows such a beating, especially given the legal theory from which the law derives?

I know that woman under Islamic law has rights that no other law give to woman:

1- A man is responsible for his wife funding. And she has no obligation to spend from her wealth on her family unless she choose to.

2- She has the right to has her own properties, money withour sharing from any one.

3- No one can force her to mary someone she don't like. And she has the right choose her husband in the resonable way.

4- The man should give a dower to his future wife. And that is her money, he has no right to force her to give it to him back.

5- Although the right of divorce is given basicly to the man. But the woman has several approaches to gain divorce:
a- If the can prove that man mistreat her, by any means including beating (not the one discussed before).
b- She can return back her dower and ask for divorce, and the Jude could divorce her.
c- She can condition herself the right of divorce in marriage contract if the they both agree on that.

6- Islam requires the marriage should be documented and at least two witnesses to grantee the woman rights after marriage.

7- If divorce happened the man is responsible to fund his children and fund his wife untill she marry someone else.

8- After divorce Islam give the woman the right of custody of her children untill the grow up.

9- She has the right to work if needed. And Islam grantee her safity due a lot of stuff.

10- She has the right of inheritance from her parents, her husband, and some of her relatives. And the has full controll over her share of the inheritance.

11- Islam equate man to woman in most of the worship practices. But woman has less duties in some cases. During her period she is not required to do prayer fasting. She shouldn't pay Zakat herself in some cases. And in Haj her husband can do some of the practices for her if she cann't.

12- The criminal law there is no differece between man and woman.


13- In sunna there many Hadith ask men to take care of their womans because they are weak and require men care.
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The list is longer than that, but that all I could remember so far.

Originally posted by kirksey957
DoctorScribbles (PBUH), is there an inheritently pimp culture in the nature of Islam? While I know they don't like to show any leg or, for that matter, ankle, it seems to me there is a lot of beating going on to control women. Your comments, please.

You tell me:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

This sure reads like a chapter out of Iceberg Slim's Pimp to me.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I know that woman under Islamic law has rights that no other law give to woman:

1- A man is responsible for his wife funding. And she has no obligation to spend from her wealth on her family unless she choose to.

2- She has the right to has her own properties, money withour sharing from any one.

3- No one can force her to mary someone she don't lik equire men care.
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The list is longer than that, but that all I could remember so far.

Do you think these are unique to Islamic law?

For those that are, do you think they derive from a legal theory that respects women as human beings? For example, from what premise derives that law that a man be responsible for his wife's funding? Why is the right of divorce given "basically to men," with only certain provisions for a wife-initiated divorce?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I assure you it's not. Our Constitution protects us from such things. The idea is ridiculous.

I don't think so, I know a case where that happens.

I will not argue this point , because the concept of family I'm talking about is different from what you understand. And you didn't answer my question about that.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You tell me:

[b]Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sle ...[text shortened]... is High, Great.

This sure reads like a chapter out of Iceberg Slim's Pimp to me.

I prefer how pimps have evolved in our own culture. I don't think Bishop Don Juan would even go for that.