1. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    10 May '08 10:59
    I was just thinking as I was working in the lab about 2 common theistic arguments, which seem to contradict each other.

    1) The universe is so wonderful there must be a creator.

    2) Without a creator life has no purpose.

    Irrespective of whether a creator exists or not, I think we can all agree the universe is a pretty spiffy place. I know I like it.

    If that is indeed the case, how can theists claim that without God there is no purpose in their lives? Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?
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    10 May '08 11:25
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I was just thinking as I was working in the lab about 2 common theistic arguments, which seem to contradict each other.

    1) The universe is so wonderful there must be a creator.

    2) Without a creator life has no purpose.

    Irrespective of whether a creator exists or not, I think we can all agree the universe is a pretty spiffy place. I know I like ...[text shortened]... rpose in their lives? Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?
    Perhaps another question might be "Why does life have to have any meaning and purpose at all?", yes, people might have to make themselves meaning for themselves for them to make it day to day, but I see little reason beyond this.
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    10 May '08 11:34
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I was just thinking as I was working in the lab about 2 common theistic arguments, which seem to contradict each other.

    1) The universe is so wonderful there must be a creator.

    2) Without a creator life has no purpose.

    Irrespective of whether a creator exists or not, I think we can all agree the universe is a pretty spiffy place. I know I like ...[text shortened]... rpose in their lives? Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?
    I think the "common" theistic argument is that God must exist because the universe is complex, not because it is wonderful.
  4. weedhopper
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    10 May '08 15:46
    Most pastors of one particular denomination I've heard a lot indicate that the universe is not such a "spiffy place". It was when God first created it, but man and his fall from grace messed it all up, and now it is a corrupt sinhole.
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    10 May '08 19:41
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I was just thinking as I was working in the lab about 2 common theistic arguments, which seem to contradict each other.

    1) The universe is so wonderful there must be a creator.

    2) Without a creator life has no purpose.

    Irrespective of whether a creator exists or not, I think we can all agree the universe is a pretty spiffy place. I know I like ...[text shortened]... rpose in their lives? Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?
    I would say that the purpose of any created thing is to please it's designer. Thus, if theism is true, our purpose in life is to please our creator.

    But if our human existence is merely the result of some random process, then there is no creator to please, so any purpose in life must be defined by each individual person.
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    11 May '08 01:02
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I was just thinking as I was working in the lab about 2 common theistic arguments, which seem to contradict each other.

    1) The universe is so wonderful there must be a creator.

    2) Without a creator life has no purpose.

    Irrespective of whether a creator exists or not, I think we can all agree the universe is a pretty spiffy place. I know I like ...[text shortened]... rpose in their lives? Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?
    The universe is indeed awesome.

    As a theist, (which sounds like a label, and I don't like labels except on cans of soup) I believe God is the life giver, and unless I knew I was going to live forever life would have little meaning. Without eternal life I'm just as good as dead.
  7. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    11 May '08 01:48
    Originally posted by josephw
    The universe is indeed awesome.

    As a theist, (which sounds like a label, and I don't like labels except on cans of soup) I believe God is the life giver, and unless I knew I was going to live forever life would have little meaning. Without eternal life I'm just as good as dead.
    Why do you require eternal life for the life you have to mean something.

    If this is your entire theology, wouldn't you just end up with an eternity of meaninglessness?

    An analogy might help. Let's imagine (and this one might be stretching it a bit too far) that I am a very rich man. Any individual yen or pound or dollar I have in my pocket is seemingly insignificant to me. However, as a poor man (much more realistic! so much so it is, in fact, real), every single yen counts. Shouldn't, as a non-eternal being, every single second of your life count more rather than less?
  8. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    11 May '08 01:49
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    Most pastors of one particular denomination I've heard a lot indicate that the universe is not such a "spiffy place". It was when God first created it, but man and his fall from grace messed it all up, and now it is a corrupt sinhole.
    Then they have a very sad existence.
  9. weedhopper
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    11 May '08 05:13
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Then they have a very sad existence.
    As I heard them speak, even as a child, I felt the exact same way; how bleak.:'(
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    11 May '08 09:53
    Originally posted by josephw
    The universe is indeed awesome.

    As a theist, (which sounds like a label, and I don't like labels except on cans of soup) I believe God is the life giver, and unless I knew I was going to live forever life would have little meaning. Without eternal life I'm just as good as dead.
    The universe is awesome only if you are a blackhole! Otherwise 99.9% of it deadly to us.....
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    11 May '08 12:11
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Why do you require eternal life for the life you have to mean something.

    If this is your entire theology, wouldn't you just end up with an eternity of meaninglessness?

    An analogy might help. Let's imagine (and this one might be stretching it a bit too far) that I am a very rich man. Any individual yen or pound or dollar I have in my pocket is se ...[text shortened]... on-eternal being, every single second of your life count [b]more
    rather than less?[/b]
    Why do you require eternal life for the life you have to mean something?

    Life has meaning because it is life! I say life has little meaning if it were only for a little while. Life has so much more meaning because it is eternal. Why consign existence to such a short span? Is living forever so hard to except? Can you not see yourself in eternity ever growing and learning about all there is? Is not that a more positive perspective than just ceasing to exist?



    If this is your entire theology, wouldn't you just end up with an eternity of meaninglessness?

    Not even close! We don't live in a bubble. Think outside the box for a moment. Think of yourself as being free of the specter of death and pain and sorrow and confusion. Think of what it would be like to have any question answered with the truth of what reality is without a doubt. That is what comes with the gift of eternal life from the one that gives life. No doubts. Just certainty. Eternal security. Life!
  12. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    11 May '08 12:38
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]Why do you require eternal life for the life you have to mean something?

    Life has meaning because it is life! I say life has little meaning if it were only for a little while. Life has so much more meaning because it is eternal. Why consign existence to such a short span? Is living forever so hard to except? Can you not see yourself in eternity eve ...[text shortened]... eternal life from the one that gives life. No doubts. Just certainty. Eternal security. Life![/b]
    So, your entire argument is it's a happier life if we just believe, irrespective of the evidence?

    You still haven't said why the universe itself isn't enough for you.
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    11 May '08 13:031 edit
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    So, your entire argument is it's a happier life if we just believe, irrespective of the evidence?

    You still haven't said why the universe itself isn't enough for you.
    There is more to the universe than just what we perceive through our senses. The argument concerning evidence isn't what I'm talking about here. Believing isn't just some arbitrary act of the will.

    If I thought or believed that the physical universe was all there is I would be limiting myself, or my thinking, to a very narrow place. I state that I know there is a God that created the universe, but of course I can't prove it using the universe as evidence. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say this; If all there is is the material universe, then I am nothing more than just that. A material being with no hope of existence beyond this motal life. That is unacceptable to me. You may think I'm dreaming of living forever and am deluded for fear of dieing and ceasing to exist, but that is not the case. If I were you and was sure that life ends at death I would be no more concerned about it than you appear to be. But I know I will live forever.

    That is what gives life meaning for me. As I said, if life is not eternal, and ends at death, then life has little meaning.

    Gotta go for now!
  14. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    11 May '08 13:10
    Originally posted by josephw
    There is more to the universe than just what we perceive through our senses. The argument concerning evidence isn't what I'm talking about here. Believing isn't just some arbitrary act of the will.

    If I thought or believed that the physical universe was all there is I would be limiting myself, or my thinking, to a very narrow place. I state that I know t ...[text shortened]... fe is not eternal, and ends at death, then life has little meaning.

    Gotta go for now!
    I pity you.
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    11 May '08 18:18
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I pity you.
    Why?
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