A wonderful universe

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Most pastors of one particular denomination I've heard a lot indicate that the universe is not such a "spiffy place". It was when God first created it, but man and his fall from grace messed it all up, and now it is a corrupt sinhole.

That must make us pretty powerful, our state of being effecting the entire universe like that.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you could make fairy cakes you would be doing well!😛

Excuse me, but who are YOU to say that I couldn't create a better universe than the one we have at present? *looks over shoulder suspiciously* Have you been looking at my SAT scores?

Originally posted by Sandnshore
Excuse me, but who are YOU to say that I couldn't create a better universe than the one we have at present? *looks over shoulder suspiciously* Have you been looking at my SAT scores?

you are correct, i am nobody, but just out of interest what was you're sat score and please no creative accounting!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
One life. Live it to the full. Try to maximise my enjoyment of it by staying alive, but allowing myself to take moderate risk.

Having children at some point probably isn't a bad idea either. Or probably "child", singular, overcrowding, see?

The next time you are out on a hillside, take note of the cows after they have had their fill. Take a real close look at them as they lay there mulling over the grass they are chewing. I don't believe I have seen anyone as content and happy as the cows.

If the purpose of life is to be happy and content and to maximize enjoyment, then the cows are well ahead of you.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That must make us pretty powerful, our state of being effecting the entire universe like that.

Indeed we are---"fragile beginnings of a mighty end"

Is this a fair statement anyone?

" If the temperature of the primal fireball that resulted from the Big Bang some fifteen to twenty billion years ago, which was the beginning of our universe, had been a trillionth of a degree colder or hotter, the carbon molecule that is the foundation of all organic life could never have developed. The number of possible universes is trillions of trillions; only one of them could support human life: this one. Sounds suspiciously like a plot. If the cosmic rays had bombarded the primordial slime at a slightly different angle or time or intensity, the hemoglobin molecule, necessary for all warm-blooded animals, could never have evolved. The chance of this molecule's evolving is something like one in a trillion trillion. Add together each of the chances and you have something far more unbelievable than a million monkeys writing Hamlet. "

Peter Kreft

Originally posted by jaywill
Is this a fair statement anyone?

[b]" If the temperature of the primal fireball that resulted from the Big Bang some fifteen to twenty billion years ago, which was the beginning of our universe, had been a trillionth of a degree colder or hotter, the carbon molecule that is the foundation of all organic life could never have developed. The number of poss ...[text shortened]... ething far more unbelievable than a million monkeys writing Hamlet. "

Peter Kreft[/b]

amen to that jaywill!

Originally posted by jaywill
Is this a fair statement anyone?

[b]" If the temperature of the primal fireball that resulted from the Big Bang some fifteen to twenty billion years ago, which was the beginning of our universe, had been a trillionth of a degree colder or hotter, the carbon molecule that is the foundation of all organic life could never have developed. The number of poss ...[text shortened]... ething far more unbelievable than a million monkeys writing Hamlet. "

Peter Kreft[/b]

What about this ...?

Take a well known person in the world today, in a position of power or responsibility. Barack Obama is a timely example but it could be anyone.
Now, think about all of the events and experiences that person has had, all of the people that person has met and been influenced by, think of all the things they have done.
Now, if one thing happened differently, one event occurred slightly differently, one person met at a later or earlier time, or not met at all, then that person might not be there in that position of power at all.
Is that a conspiracy? Is that a monkey-typing-hamlet occurrence?
Hardly. It's how this universe of chance works.

The notion that our universe balances on some knife edge of non-existence - or that we living creatures in it do - is a little bit of anthropic nonsense.
Yes, it took a lot of coincidences and unusual events to have us here today typing on these computers, but so what?
If those things hadn't happened, or if those cosmic constants didn't have the values they did, we wouldn't be here, but so what?

This is hardly any more evidence of a creator than Barack Obama or you or I are.

Originally posted by jaywill
Is this a fair statement anyone?

No it is not. What is more, you either already know that it is not or don't want to know. We have had numerous discussions on this topic in these thread in the past and every single time the theists supporting Krefts position slink away.

Now show that you are better than that and answer these questions honestly:
If you won a lottery for which you had a million to one chance of winning would you say that was "unbelievable"? Would you refuse to collect your winnings on the grounds that you simply do not believe the outcome? If someone else won the lottery would you go to court claiming that the lottery was fixed?
If the odds were a trillion-trillion to one, how would it change your answers above?

And also address amannion's excellent point above.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No it is not. What is more, you either already know that it is not or don't want to know. We have had numerous discussions on this topic in these thread in the past and every single time the theists supporting Krefts position slink away.

Now show that you are better than that and answer these questions honestly:
If you won a lottery for which you had ...[text shortened]... ow would it change your answers above?

And also address amannion's excellent point above.

Except it isn't just a 1/1,000,000,000 chance taking place, but several
of these types of things all running together and supposedly occurring
one after another to get us to where we are, and this too does not
seem to give you pause either.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Except it isn't just a 1/1,000,000,000 chance taking place, but several
of these types of things all running together and supposedly occurring
one after another to get us to where we are, and this too does not
seem to give you pause either.
Kelly

Are you willing to answer my questions before we move on, or are you too going to stick with the claim of incredulity that the whole argument rests on? When people carefully avoid my questions and simply repeat the claim, it indicates to me that they do understand the argument but wont admit that they are wrong.

You are correct, it does not give me pause, and I would like from you and explanation as to why it gives you pause. But first I want to know whether the 1 in a million gives you pause and why.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are you willing to answer my questions before we move on, or are you too going to stick with the claim of incredulity that the whole argument rests on? When people carefully avoid my questions and simply repeat the claim, it indicates to me that they do understand the argument but wont admit that they are wrong.

You are correct, it does not give me pau ...[text shortened]... it gives you pause. But first I want to know whether the 1 in a million gives you pause and why.

It gives me pause, mainly because chance as sweet as it is when
someone hits the lotto does not allow everyone on the planet to
over come those odds daily year after year. At some point when you
start running up all the things necessary to "happen just right" you
have to start thinking (in my opinion) that more than chance is
involved here.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Except it isn't just a 1/1,000,000,000 chance taking place, but several
of these types of things all running together and supposedly occurring
one after another to get us to where we are, and this too does not
seem to give you pause either.
Kelly

Can I just ask where these odds come from?
I can understand how we can figure out pretty easily the chances of winning a lottery ticket - based on the number of variations and the number of entries and so on, a little bit of basic probability and statistics will help you there.
But when it comes to life where are we getting the figures from - 1 in a million, 1 in a billion, 1 in a gazillion?
How do we calculate these odds?

I don't think anyone does, beyond mere guesses. So how do we know to begin with, that we're even talking about unlikely events and occurrences? Because someone else says so? Because we want to think of ourselves as particularly special and so we must be unlikely?

It may well be that these knife edge coincidences are in fact the only values that are possible in our universe - that the physical constants are not million to one flukes, but that these constants are constrained to only have a small number of values - constrained perhaps by the physical forces or by quantum mechanics or by something else.

I'm no physicist obviously, but it strikes me that we simply assume that life is rare or hard to get, when the reality is that this is an assumption we make.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I was just thinking as I was working in the lab about 2 common theistic arguments, which seem to contradict each other.

1) The universe is so wonderful there must be a creator.

2) Without a creator life has no purpose.

Irrespective of whether a creator exists or not, I think we can all agree the universe is a pretty spiffy place. I know I like ...[text shortened]... rpose in their lives? Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?

Who could live amongst such wonder and require a god to give them meaning?

I doubt any theists actually require the presupposition of God's existence in order to experience wonder.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It gives me pause, mainly because chance as sweet as it is when
someone hits the lotto does not allow everyone on the planet to
over come those odds daily year after year. At some point when you
start running up all the things necessary to "happen just right" you
have to start thinking (in my opinion) that more than chance is
involved here.
Kelly

In other words you are making the claim that the current state of the universe is 'special' and all other states that might have happened are not special.
But do you have a good reason for that claim, or is it merely an illusion caused by the fact that we happen (by chance) to be in the current state.

One obvious problem with your argument is amannions point about president Obama. If looked at from another angle, would you say that Hitlers rise to power 'happened just right'?

And most importantly, how long must odds be before they give you pause? Why don't a million to one odds give you pause? They are pretty long odds are they not?