I have heard that in the NT if you look closely at the translations right back to the original that at the times where Jesus is refering to his and our "Father" (God) he actually uses the word for Abba instead. Abba loosely translates as Daddy or Dada and would be a word a young jewish child used to greet their Daddy and jump on his knee.
Brennan Manning speculates that the translators and recorders of Jesus's words found the term Abba too threatening and irreverent to use that often. For Jesus to imply that we are to think of God as Abba is to imply a relationship of such familiarity and childllike intimacy was too much for us. God as Father is far more serious and respectful. God as Abba implies God is our Daddy and he wants us to jump up on to his knee and play with his beard.
What a thought. For Islam this would be blasphemous ! Maybe for the Christian church too? But is this not our deepest yearning - to be loved with such warmth by an Abba? Has something incredibly subtle and importnat been lost in the NT. Did Jesus invite us to call God Daddy and did we find the idea far too threatening that we turned God back into the stern distant "father". ? Was Jesus's message too radical for them (and us still)?
Originally posted by knightmeister I have heard that in the NT if you look closely at the translations right back to the original that at the times where Jesus is refering to his and our "Father" (God) he actually uses the word for Abba instead. Abba loosely translates as Daddy or Dada and would be a word a young jewish child used to greet their Daddy and jump on his knee.
Brennan M ...[text shortened]... nto the stern distant "father". ? Was Jesus's message too radical for them (and us still)?
There is nothing threatening about it. Nothing has been lost either. A Roman Catholic can adress God as Abba whenever he feels like it and whenever he feels it is appropiate.
Originally posted by knightmeister I have heard that in the NT if you look closely at the translations right back to the original that at the times where Jesus is refering to his and our "Father" (God) he actually uses the word for Abba instead. Abba loosely translates as Daddy or Dada and would be a word a young jewish child used to greet their Daddy and jump on his knee.
Brennan M ...[text shortened]... nto the stern distant "father". ? Was Jesus's message too radical for them (and us still)?
In Romans 8, Paul makes it clear that the revelation of God as Abba is what being a Christian is all about. If that heart relationship is not there, wherein one knows God as "Daddy" and thinks fondly of Him as such, then one should question whether they are indeed living by the faith of Jesus Christ or not.
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (Romans 8:13-16).
Originally posted by ivanhoe There is nothing threatening about it. Nothing has been lost either. A Roman Catholic can adress God as Abba whenever he feels like it and whenever he feels it is appropiate.
My experience is that many of us (me included) struggle to really live and feel this. Of course it's threatening . It threatens our fear , our rigidness, our seriousness. Intimacy and love is always threatening to us if it wasn't God's love would be easy to receive. His love exposes our shame and seeks to melt it.
Originally posted by knightmeister My experience is that many of us (me included) struggle to really live and feel this. Of course it's threatening . It threatens our fear , our rigidness, our seriousness. Intimacy and love is always threatening to us if it wasn't God's love would be easy to receive. His love exposes our shame and seeks to melt it.
Roman Catholics have a sacrament called, the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation". It helps solving the problems you speak of.
Paragraphs 1420-1498 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church explain the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Penance in detail:
Originally posted by ivanhoe Roman Catholics have a sacrament called, the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation". It helps solving the problems you speak of.
Paragraphs 1420-1498 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church explain the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Penance in detail:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P45.HTM
How to Receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation:
http://www.carr.org/~meripper/faith/reconcil.htm
Roman Catholics have a sacrament called, the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation". It helps solving the problems you speak of. IVAN
It's not a problem to be "solved". Jesus meets us in our shame and brokeness and fear. He doesn't offer us an escape , he meets us as we are and not as we should be.
Originally posted by knightmeister Roman Catholics have a sacrament called, the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation". It helps solving the problems you speak of. IVAN
It's not a problem to be "solved". Jesus meets us in our shame and brokeness and fear. He doesn't offer us an escape , he meets us as we are and not as we should be.
Absolutely true .... but how do you think this truth contradicts the information I have posted ?
Originally posted by ivanhoe Roman Catholics have a sacrament called, the "Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation". It helps solving the problems you speak of.
And yet there are only two "sacraments" given in the NT - baptism, and communion.
Originally posted by epiphinehas In Romans 8, Paul makes it clear that the revelation of God as Abba is what being a Christian is all about. If that heart relationship is not there, wherein one knows God as "Daddy" and thinks fondly of Him as such, then one should question whether they are indeed living by the faith of Jesus Christ or not.
"For if you live according to the flesh you ...[text shortened]... pirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (Romans 8:13-16).
My father never asked my brother to murder his firstborn. If he had, my brother probably wouldn't have done it.
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Has something incredibly subtle and importnat been lost in the NT.
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Epiphinehas, has done an excellent job to show that the answer is NO. Something has NOT been lost in the New Testament.
In the worship of many Christians perhaps, this intimate experience of calling God our Daddy - Abba, may be lacking. But that is not the fault of the New Testament as proved by Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6
But we do not have to lack that personal touch. You and I can call God Abba Father as much and as ofthen as we wish.
I call Abba Father quite often. And each Lord's Table meeting our congregation resonates with prayers, praises, and songs of Abba Father, Abba Father. It is not hard when it is so Real to us that God is indeed our own dear Daddy, our Abba Father.
He loves for us to believe in His Son. And He loves to the uttermost that we would call and address Him as our dear Abba Father.
You will feel so sweet within when you draw near to God the Father through Jesus Christ, crying "Abba, Abba Father. My own dear Father. My own dear Abba, I love you."
Originally posted by knightmeister Was Jesus's message too radical for them (and us still)?
What I have never understood is how you reconcile the claim that Jesus was Gods only son but God is every bodies father. Can you call Jesus brother? (Or 'my bru' as it would be in Cape Town)
I always got the impression that Jesus referred to God as his and everybody else's father and did not make it personal. The lords prayer starts with "Our father". (Though of course that should now be "Daddy" or "Yo, Pops"😉.
Originally posted by twhitehead What I have never understood is how you reconcile the claim that Jesus was Gods [b]only son but God is every bodies father. Can you call Jesus brother? (Or 'my bru' as it would be in Cape Town)
I always got the impression that Jesus referred to God as his and everybody else's father and did not make it personal. The lords prayer starts with "Our father". (Though of course that should now be "Daddy" or "Yo, Pops"😉.[/b]
What I have never understood is how you reconcile the claim that Jesus was Gods only son but God is every bodies father. WHITEY
You don't understand because you don't realise who Jesus is. However , this is quite easy. Jesus was God's only son but he passed on that sonship to us to make our adoption as son's possible. If Jesus had not done this then God could not become our father.
"So that they may be as one father just as we are one".
Jesus bought for us our adoption as sons of God , the Bible is full of this theology , it permeates St Pauls teaching. It seems you don't know what it is you disbelieve. I thought you were a "christian" once , if so you would know all about this. You missed a key part of it along the way didn't you.
Abba not Father....
01 Sep '07 08:26
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