Abba not Father....

Originally posted by knightmeister
"So that they may be as one father just as we are one".

I cant make any sense out of that sentence. Neither does your Only biological son / adopted children make much sense to me.

Jesus bought for us our adoption as sons of God , the Bible is full of this theology , it permeates St Pauls teaching. It seems you don't know what it is you disbelieve. I thought you were a "christian" once , if so you would know all about this. You missed a key part of it along the way didn't you.
I was a Christian up to about the age of 13. I believed mostly what I was told but don't claim to have understood much of it. But then I haven't met any Christians who do actually understand very much. It doesn't take more than a few questions before they resort to "I don't actually know". Your free will threads are a good example of that.
As for what are 'key parts' of Christianity well everyone seems to disagree. I think that if you did a survey, you would find that most of your 'key' beliefs were not shared by a significant number of people calling themselves Christian. I noticed not one single Christian at this site was willing to support you fully in the free will threads and some outright disagreed with you yet you implied that you held the sole mandate on what 'Christian free will' was all about.

As for the "you don't know what you disbelieve" bit you too can hardly claim to know very much about every religion that you don't believe. I am sure you don't even know the commandments of the Spaghetti monster.
I know there is no God and I don't need to know every single belief that every theist throughout history has held to know that there is no God.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I cant make any sense out of that sentence. Neither does your Only biological son / adopted children make much sense to me.

[b]Jesus bought for us our adoption as sons of God , the Bible is full of this theology , it permeates St Pauls teaching. It seems you don't know what it is you disbelieve. I thought you were a "christian" once , if so you would k ...[text shortened]... hat every theist throughout history has held to know that there is no God.

But then I haven't met any Christians who do actually understand very much. It doesn't take more than a few questions before they resort to "I don't actually know". WHITEY

This is because you are unconsciously or consciously focusing on the things that cannot be answered fully or questions that don't make sense in an attempt to prove to yourself that it's all bunk. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in the end. If you asked a few Christians here about the theology of how Christ bought our adoption as sons of God through his death you will find a lot of understanding. But then you don't want to hear that do you.

What happened to you in the church? Sounds like you had it rammed down your throat somewhat and never had the Gospel in its true form expalined to you. I can understand it if you have a chip on your shoulder , afterall 13 is a good age for a rebellion.

We all see what our belief system focuses on and makes us see. This is why faith opens your eyes and disbelief closes them. You see what you want to see and so do I.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I cant make any sense out of that sentence. Neither does your Only biological son / adopted children make much sense to me.

[b]Jesus bought for us our adoption as sons of God , the Bible is full of this theology , it permeates St Pauls teaching. It seems you don't know what it is you disbelieve. I thought you were a "christian" once , if so you would k ...[text shortened]... hat every theist throughout history has held to know that there is no God.

I know there is no God and I don't need to know every single belief that every theist throughout history has held to know that there is no God. WHITEY

However , if one is to say "I don't believe X" one must know what X is in order to disbelieve X otherwise disbelieving x has no meaning. It s like creationists disbelieving evolution when they don't even understand it or know what it is. It's a fundamentally dogmatic position based on an imagining of what X is.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you asked a few Christians here about the theology of how Christ bought our adoption as sons of God through his death you will find a lot of understanding. But then you don't want to hear that do you.

I have asked on several occasions and the was absolute silence. Not one single Christian was willing to even attempt an answer.
So lets see how you do.
Who was Christ buying our adoption from and what currency was he using? Why do people in the old testament also consider themselves to be sons of God or is it one of those 'time is irrelevant' cases?
What do you actually mean when you say Jesus died?

What happened to you in the church? Sounds like you had it rammed down your throat somewhat and never had the Gospel in its true form expalined to you.
I was brought up in a Christian family though 'rammed down my throat' is a bit excessive. I have never figured out how to tell what the 'true form' of the Gospel is so I have no idea if it has been explained to me.

I can understand it if you have a chip on your shoulder , afterall 13 is a good age for a rebellion.
I don't really have a chip on my shoulder from my childhood but I probably do have one now due to:
1. the discrimination I have suffered for being an atheist.
2. the fact that the advancement of science is severely hampered by creationists and other religious people.

We all see what our belief system focuses on and makes us see. This is why faith opens your eyes and disbelief closes them. You see what you want to see and so do I.
But if it is really there then you should be able to explain it to another in clear concise language. Any one with intelligence can learn and understand science. The same is not apparently true for religious ideas.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have asked on several occasions and the was absolute silence. Not one single Christian was willing to even attempt an answer.
So lets see how you do.
Who was Christ buying our adoption from and what currency was he using? Why do people in the old testament also consider themselves to be sons of God or is it one of those 'time is irrelevant' cases?
Wh ...[text shortened]... ce can learn and understand science. The same is not apparently true for religious ideas.

Any one with intelligence can learn and understand science. The same is not apparently true for religious ideas. WHITEY

Religion and spirituality uses a different framework and language . Both are accessible in different ways.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have asked on several occasions and the was absolute silence. Not one single Christian was willing to even attempt an answer.
So lets see how you do.
Who was Christ buying our adoption from and what currency was he using? Why do people in the old testament also consider themselves to be sons of God or is it one of those 'time is irrelevant' cases?
Wh ...[text shortened]... ce can learn and understand science. The same is not apparently true for religious ideas.

Who was Christ buying our adoption from and what currency was he using? Why do people in the old testament also consider themselves to be sons of God or is it one of those 'time is irrelevant' cases?
What do you actually mean when you say Jesus died? WHITEY

Before I even consider answering these questions I would need to know how open you are to hearing the answers. If you are to take a highly cynical and pedantic approach then I will just be wasting my time and yours confirming what you already believe anyway. A I have said before it's a matter of choice.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Religion and spirituality uses a different framework and language . Both are accessible in different ways.

Are you saying what I think you are? That religion requires belief before understanding? Or are you just being vague because you know I am right?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have asked on several occasions and the was absolute silence. Not one single Christian was willing to even attempt an answer.
So lets see how you do.
Who was Christ buying our adoption from and what currency was he using? Why do people in the old testament also consider themselves to be sons of God or is it one of those 'time is irrelevant' cases?
Wh ...[text shortened]... ce can learn and understand science. The same is not apparently true for religious ideas.

Not one single Christian was willing to even attempt an answer. WHITEY

I wonder if the chip put them off. The way you ask these questions is important. If you ask them in the spirit of trying to genuinely get an understanding and criticise fairly then fair enough. If you are asking merely to find as many opportunities to dismantle and pick holes then people will pick this up from you and probably not want to reply. Have you considered it may also be something to do with your approach? Having said this I am prepared to try to answer these questions and I am also prepared to have them robustly analysed and questioned. However , if you have already made your mind up that what I may say will turn out to be complete bunk then why should I do it?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I wonder if the chip put them off. The way you ask these questions is important. If you ask them in the spirit of trying to genuinely get an understanding and criticise fairly then fair enough. If you are asking merely to find as many opportunities to dismantle and pick holes then people will pick this up from you and probably not want to reply. Have y ...[text shortened]... made your mind up that what I may say will turn out to be complete bunk then why should I do it?

Of course I think it will be complete bunk. You would too if you were an atheist, and I am sure you think the same thing about religions other than your own. But you brought it up and suggested that I should learn what I could about what I don't believe in. You have in the past made similar suggestions and hints and attempts at preaching your beliefs well outside the scope of a given thread.
I do admit that my main reason for asking is to find out whether you really do have an answer. You implied that you did initially and even suggested that I try asking but several posts later you still appear to be dodging the question.
If you don't think it worth your time then why not answer this one:
Why do you and other Christians think it worthwhile discussing so many topics at length such as free will, creationism, morality, the big bang, proofs of God etc but avoid like the plague other topics such as sacrifice and the soul? Surely Jesus' sacrifice and the human soul are far more central to your religion? So why the avoidance of those topics in particular?
I am however being honest in that I do not understand most of the key concepts in Christianity despite being brought up in a Christian family with nearly everybody I knew being Christian. I do honestly want to know what it is Christians believe and the first item on my agenda is to find out whether you actually have a rational understanding of your core concepts or whether you just skim over them and pretend that they make sense and play the avoidance game whenever difficult questions arise.
I have absolutely no doubt that many Christians are as I have described and will admit as such for some of their beliefs. In fact it is not at all unusual for a Christian (even preachers or priests) to gain new insight into something and then publicly admit that they did not understand it before and were troubled by it and avoided thinking about it in the past.
I would like to gauge to what extent that is prevalent and whether there are any Christians who do not indulge in it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course I think it will be complete bunk. You would too if you were an atheist, and I am sure you think the same thing about religions other than your own. But you brought it up and suggested that I should learn what I could about what I don't believe in. You have in the past made similar suggestions and hints and attempts at preaching your beliefs well ...[text shortened]... what extent that is prevalent and whether there are any Christians who do not indulge in it.

Surely Jesus' sacrifice and the human soul are far more central to your religion? So why the avoidance of those topics in particular? WHITEY

I haven't avoided anything yet. I'm waiting to see how cynical and pedantic you are going to be. If I can be given something of a fair trial then Ok it might be worth it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course I think it will be complete bunk. You would too if you were an atheist, and I am sure you think the same thing about religions other than your own. But you brought it up and suggested that I should learn what I could about what I don't believe in. You have in the past made similar suggestions and hints and attempts at preaching your beliefs well ...[text shortened]... what extent that is prevalent and whether there are any Christians who do not indulge in it.

Of course I think it will be complete bunk. You would too if you were an atheist, and I am sure you think the same thing about religions other than your own. Whitey


This may be an area of misunderstanding . I don't actually think like this. I can see many reasons why people are atheists or muslims and many arguments make a lot of sense to me. My faith does not depend on believing that other positions make no sense at all because they do. My faith is based on the fact that I feel I cannot not be a Christian because it is everything that I am and more. Being a Christian means that you have discovered the living God , not that everything else is bunk. Infact i think it's quite healthy for a Christian to have a touch of atheistic cynicism in them.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course I think it will be complete bunk. You would too if you were an atheist, and I am sure you think the same thing about religions other than your own. But you brought it up and suggested that I should learn what I could about what I don't believe in. You have in the past made similar suggestions and hints and attempts at preaching your beliefs well ...[text shortened]... what extent that is prevalent and whether there are any Christians who do not indulge in it.

Who was Christ buying our adoption from and what currency was he using? Why do people in the old testament also consider themselves to be sons of God or is it one of those 'time is irrelevant' cases?
What do you actually mean when you say Jesus died? WHITEY


Ok , to answer the first one , Christ bought or "paid for" our adoption by placing himself in our place in front of God (the father). God is so Holy and pure that he's a bit like a holy fire that will burn up anything evil and sinful. He hates hypocrisy , violence , immorality etc so much that if we came to him as we are then we could not stand in our own righteousness. This is the great struggle of Islam and Judaism - how can we be right with God? God's justice is such that he cannot pretend that sin is not there so it needs to be dealt with but at the same time he is so forgiving and loving that he wants to reconcile us with himself. The cross is where these two forces if you like meet. The yearning heart of God to forgive and the purity of God's holiness. Christ therefore pays the price for us in our place but also opens the door to God's mercy at the same time. His currency was his own perfection , him.

As to the OT people being sons of God also I'm afraid it is a case of God being outside of time. When Jesus dies then it is an eternal event that takes place through all time and all spiritual dimensions. Thus it works backwards as well as forwards.

When Jesus died he was a man as well as Christ. Being fully human he can die just as any man. But also being the fulfillment of humanity and having Christ (God's sonship ) within him death could not hold him. There are so many other aspects here for example God reaching down into death and suffering so that man can reach up to God etc.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I haven't avoided anything yet. I'm waiting to see how cynical and pedantic you are going to be. If I can be given something of a fair trial then Ok it might be worth it.

You haven't asked for a fair trial for any of the other thread topics you have participated in. Why now?

Originally posted by knightmeister
This may be an area of misunderstanding . I don't actually think like this. I can see many reasons why people are atheists or muslims and many arguments make a lot of sense to me. My faith does not depend on believing that other positions make no sense at all because they do. My faith is based on the fact that I feel I cannot not be a Christian because ...[text shortened]... fact i think it's quite healthy for a Christian to have a touch of atheistic cynicism in them.

Atheism is not a religion and I never suggested that you would think it complete bunk. I don't believe that you find Muslim theology to be logically sound. If you did, you would be a Muslim.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , to answer the first one , Christ bought or "paid for" our adoption by placing himself in our place in front of God (the father). God is so Holy and pure that he's a bit like a holy fire that will burn up anything evil and sinful. He hates hypocrisy , violence , immorality etc so much that if we came to him as we are then we could not stand in our ...[text shortened]... pens the door to God's mercy at the same time. His currency was his own perfection , him.

I still don't understand it at all. Are you saying that Christs crucification and death was perfection?(currency = perfection) It sounds like you are saying 'somebody had to die so God did it for us' but you sort of shy away from that. Is that what you are saying?
It just sounds rather like a judge sentencing a criminal to death then saying 'well I love you so much but someone has to serve the sentence so I'll hang myself instead'. That at least is how most Christians have explained it to me in the past. I was hoping you had something more sensible. Do you?