Abba not Father....

Originally posted by twhitehead
I really don't see how me having a problem or accepting that problem should in any way affect me understanding it as it affects you. I will for the sake of understanding accept that you are sinful and totally undeserving of the forgiveness of God. Will that help? Or is this one of those famous catch 22's that go like this: 'delude yourself and all will be ...[text shortened]... ugh I have made it quite clear in previous posts that I do not understand it at all.

Or is this one of those famous catch 22's that go like this: 'delude yourself and all will become clear'. WHITEY

It's more a case of undelude yourself really. We are deluded by our own belief that God will see something in us that is good and then think it counts in our favour. The deluded part of this is that any good deeds or goodness within us belongs to him anyway. It's a bit like me borrowing money from my bank manager and then expecting him to be thankful when I loan him some of it back as if it were mine in the first place!!!

Originally posted by twhitehead
I really don't see how me having a problem or accepting that problem should in any way affect me understanding it as it affects you. I will for the sake of understanding accept that you are sinful and totally undeserving of the forgiveness of God. Will that help? Or is this one of those famous catch 22's that go like this: 'delude yourself and all will be ...[text shortened]... ugh I have made it quite clear in previous posts that I do not understand it at all.

Again 'price'. Are sins bought from someone? WHITEY

No , the penalty for sin and being in darkness is to be separated from God. Having darkness in our hearts means we could face the penalty of separation . So in one sense our sins are not "bought" but the penalty for sin is paid by Christ. We do not get the treatment that our darkness would normally mean for us , ie that the holiness of God would repel us and separate us. The penalty would be the equivalent of entering a nuclear reactor without protection. Christ pays this penalty , he becomes our suit. He's like your own personal firewall.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I really don't see how me having a problem or accepting that problem should in any way affect me understanding it as it affects you. I will for the sake of understanding accept that you are sinful and totally undeserving of the forgiveness of God. Will that help? Or is this one of those famous catch 22's that go like this: 'delude yourself and all will be ugh I have made it quite clear in previous posts that I do not understand it at all.

I really don't see how me having a problem or accepting that problem should in any way affect me understanding it as it affects you. WHITEY


Oh come on. You wouldn't say this about chess for example . You can try to relate to someone who has never played and doesn't know chess the tension between finding the right move at the right time or waiting to see what your opponent will do , but they won't really get it until they learn to play.

Similarly , unless one sees ones need of redemption one will not see the redeemer. It's the old pride versus humility battle. " God would see all the good things I've done and count them in my favour" etc etc.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Which is quite logical because any goodness within me is what God put there anyway. I have no righteousness of my own . I did not create myself. However , I do have the right to claim the forgiveness fo God , he gives me that right through christ.

But is that sufficient for me to understand what you are saying or must I first believe myself to be similarly sinful before your words stop being unintelligible gobbledygook to me?

Originally posted by knightmeister
He paid the price of our separation.

Were getting closer. So separation from God comes with a price. But a currency kind of price as in you break it you pay for it not price in the sense that if you do something then the consequences must be faced. Am I getting there?

Christ takes the "heat" for us and pays the "price" for us.
I still don't get the 'price' bit even when it is in inverted commas. Are you saying that by sinning there is a universal 'law' that requires that we be burnt as a result? Are you saying that there is a universal 'law' that says that for every sin, someones got to suffer?

In this way God's righteousness and justice are preserved whilst at the same time his compassion and forgiveness are also preserved in Christ.
Please explain this in a bit more detail. How are Gods righteousness and justice are preserved? I don't see it? Are you saying that it is righteous for God to burn someone, anyone, for each sin that has been committed? How does this translate when we take sin to mean 'separation from God'? For every bit of separation from God, in order to remain righteous and just, God must burn / punish someone?

Again I will ask, is this something that was explained to you in the Bible, is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Oh come on. You wouldn't say this about chess for example . You can try to relate to someone who has never played and doesn't know chess the tension between finding the right move at the right time or waiting to see what your opponent will do , but they won't really get it until they learn to play.

I disagree, there must be some way to explain to someone everything about chess including the emotions involved without that person ever playing chess. Obviously it does help to give analogies etc.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Were getting closer. So separation from God comes with a price. But a currency kind of price as in you break it you pay for it not price in the sense that if you do something then the consequences must be faced. Am I getting there?

[b]Christ takes the "heat" for us and pays the "price" for us.
I still don't get the 'price' bit even when it is in i ...[text shortened]... is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God?[/b]

Are you saying that by sinning there is a universal 'law' that requires that we be burnt as a result? Are you saying that there is a universal 'law' that says that for every sin, someones got to suffer? WHITEY

First bit is right but the second bit is a bit astray. God's holiness is his nature. That is what he is. Just like radiation is what it is , it can't not be radiation. We cannot get close to God's holiness without being clothed in christ. The law of holiness if you like is just what God is made of , his perfect love. It seeks out an convicts all that is impure and proud enough to think it can stand in it's own right. It's sort of like the scene at the end of the first indiana jones film although I am no harrison ford! LOL

Originally posted by twhitehead
I disagree, there must be some way to explain to someone everything about chess including the emotions involved without that person ever playing chess. Obviously it does help to give analogies etc.

but if you have never played chess there is a limit to understanding

Originally posted by twhitehead
Were getting closer. So separation from God comes with a price. But a currency kind of price as in you break it you pay for it not price in the sense that if you do something then the consequences must be faced. Am I getting there?

[b]Christ takes the "heat" for us and pays the "price" for us.
I still don't get the 'price' bit even when it is in i ...[text shortened]... is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God?[/b]

For every bit of separation from God, in order to remain righteous and just, God must burn / punish someone? WHITEY

No just one person. He places it all on christ instead. Christ can bear it .

Originally posted by twhitehead
Were getting closer. So separation from God comes with a price. But a currency kind of price as in you break it you pay for it not price in the sense that if you do something then the consequences must be faced. Am I getting there?

[b]Christ takes the "heat" for us and pays the "price" for us.
I still don't get the 'price' bit even when it is in i ...[text shortened]... is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God?[/b]

Again I will ask, is this something that was explained to you in the Bible, is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God? WHITEY

All of them but mainly the work of the spirit and the witness of other christians

Originally posted by twhitehead
But is that sufficient for me to understand what you are saying or must I first believe myself to be similarly sinful before your words stop being unintelligible gobbledygook to me?

I don't know do you think you are a good person? Do you think the goodness within you belongs to you or was it given to you? Did you create yourself?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But is that sufficient for me to understand what you are saying or must I first believe myself to be similarly sinful before your words stop being unintelligible gobbledygook to me?

I don't know do you think you are a good person? Do you think the goodness within you belongs to you or was it given to you? Did you create yourself?

Originally posted by knightmeister
First bit is right but the second bit is a bit astray. God's holiness is his nature. That is what he is. Just like radiation is what it is , it can't not be radiation. We cannot get close to God's holiness without being clothed in christ. The law of holiness if you like is just what God is made of , his perfect love. It seeks out an convicts all that ...[text shortened]... e the scene at the end of the first indiana jones film although I am no harrison ford! LOL

I'm still not getting it. How does Christ protecting us from Gods radiation translate into 'payment' and death on the Cross?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I'm still not getting it. How does Christ protecting us from Gods radiation translate into 'payment' and death on the Cross?

I'm still not getting it. How does Christ protecting us from Gods radiation translate into 'payment' and death on the Cross? Whitey

God's justice must be fulfilled, so in a way Christ is absorbing God's righteous anger and holy justice into himself. I suppose if one had a radiation suit that could absorb radiation and stop it from reaching us that might be a good analogy. However , Christ is also part of God so it's more like God taking our sin upon himself. People sometimes ask "why can't God just forgive us instead of going through this whole business?" - the answer is that the cross of christ is what God looks like when he forgives.

God's "radiation" is his holy justice that cannot just turn a blind eye to sin and pretend it's nothing. It's like a judge who shows compassion on a criminal and lets him off his punishment . He can do this but the law and justice require that the fine be paid in full and that justice runs it's full course. The criminal has no money so the judge pays the fine for him. Justice has been satisfied and so has mercy.

God's radiation is so pure and loving that it is disgusted by sin and evil. You have a little bit of God in you yourself. Think of a time when you have been morally appalled by something on the TV and it's filled you with righteous anger and a thirst for justice and love . You live in South Africa so that should be too hard. That's what God is like but 10,000 times more.

Is this getting any easier? You seem curious about this subject . Am I getting a fair trial? Are you asking because you really want to know? Or are looking for an opportunity to trip me up? If you are then you will no doubt find some way of doing it. I am torn between wondering whether you are searching for a real insight into this or if you unconsciously want to ridicule. At the moment your questions seem fair enough and reasonable.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Were getting closer. So separation from God comes with a price. But a currency kind of price as in you break it you pay for it not price in the sense that if you do something then the consequences must be faced. Am I getting there?

[b]Christ takes the "heat" for us and pays the "price" for us.
I still don't get the 'price' bit even when it is in i ...[text shortened]... is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God?[/b]

Again I will ask, is this something that was explained to you in the Bible, is it self evident to you, did you make it up or was it revealed to you by God? WHITEY

I think it might be time to introduce some experiential undertstanding here. I've cut and pasted this song by jars of clay to give you more of an insight. This is a song about a guy who is kind of despairing of the condition of his own heart . He sees how impoverished his love is and how numb he can be to the world sometimes.He is aware of his true state. His pride is shattered. He is on his knees. This to me is what coming to Christ sounds like (in rock form). It's only in this place of shame and grace that the cross makes real sense. Broken and ashamed he struggles to accept God's grace and love. The blood of Christ is the only antidote for him in this place. If you have not been to this place or can imagine what it's like then the price christ paid for us will make no sense.

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