15 Jun 07
2 edits
aiOriginally posted by GinoJJesus was a prophet and messanger from GOD, he came with message to Jews who deviated from the law of moses. His tought his 12 disiples so that they could deliver the message to people after him. Jews leaders refused him and tried to kill him. He prayed to GOD to save him and so he was saved. The killed someone else. Jesus didn't create a new religion and so his dispiles.
What is this all about?
After he was raisen his dispiles started to preach with his teaching between Jews. Many Jews followed his teachings but they remain Jews (There was no Christianity at that time), and some non-Jews became Jews because of his teaching.
One man called Paul who claimed to be Jew and also claimed to saw Jesus start teaching with something different from what the 12 disiples were teaching. He was teaching of salvation and tried to preach between non-jews and Pagans. For this reason there were problems between Paul and Jesus dispiles. Paul teachings ware the bases of the current Christianity. At that time there was no Bible. There were the books of moses and some other books. The Bible was collected later on.
Years later when more pagans heard about jesus and when his teaching spread into the roman impire, and polytheistic religions started to affect the remaining teaching of Jesus and his 12 dispiles ending of Making Jesus GOD in year 325 when Costantine tried to create a religion that compines the monothiest of Jesus and Jews religion and Polythiest of roman religions, creating the religion of Christianity which was adopted to be the religion of the roman impire.
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What do you think?
16 Jun 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyOne man called Paul who claimed to be Jew and also claimed to saw Jesus start teaching with something different from what the 12 disiples were teaching.
Jesus was a prophet and messanger from GOD, he came with message to Jews who deviated from the law of moses. His tought his 12 disiples so that they could deliver the message to people after him. Jews leaders refused him and tried to kill him. He prayed to GOD to save him and so he was saved. The killed someone else. Jesus didn't create a new religion and s ...[text shortened]... was adopted to be the religion of the roman impire.
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What do you think?
What was Paul teaching that was different from what the 12 disciples were teaching ?
Why did you fail to mention that Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was before a great opponent of the Christian church and persecuted the disciples?
16 Jun 07
Originally posted by jaywillHe did mention more than Josephw. How come you're not on his ass?
[b]One man called Paul who claimed to be Jew and also claimed to saw Jesus start teaching with something different from what the 12 disiples were teaching.
What was Paul teaching that was different from what the 12 disciples were teaching ?
Why did you fail to mention that Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was before a great opponent of the Christian church and persecuted the disciples?[/b]
17 Jun 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyI wonder if you ever prayed to God to reveal in you who Jesus really is!
Jesus was a prophet and messanger from GOD, he came with message to Jews who deviated from the law of moses. His tought his 12 disiples so that they could deliver the message to people after him. Jews leaders refused him and tried to kill him. He prayed to GOD to save him and so he was saved. The killed someone else. Jesus didn't create a new religion and s ...[text shortened]... was adopted to be the religion of the roman impire.
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What do you think?
I'm reluctant to disagree with you because I can see how sure you are that the word of God really isn't the word of God.
Do you really think God would waste his time communicating his will to us, and then allow it to be so corrupted that we don't know what the word of God is?
17 Jun 07
Originally posted by josephwYou'll note that the exact same question underlies a few of the questions I've been asking in here. It all depends on what the concept "the Word of God" comprises, doesn't it?
Do you really think God would waste his time communicating his will to us, and then allow it to be so corrupted that we don't know what the word of God is?
18 Jun 07
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwI wonder if you ever prayed to God to reveal in you who Jesus really is!
I wonder if you ever prayed to God to reveal in you who Jesus really is!
I'm reluctant to disagree with you because I can see how sure you are that the word of God really isn't the word of God.
Do you really think God would waste his time communicating his will to us, and then allow it to be so corrupted that we don't know what the word of God is?
As a Muslim I pray at least 5 times a day, I bow down with my face to the ground just like Jesus did. In every prayer I read the first Chapter of Quran at least twice:
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Fatiha)
1. In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn -mankind, jinns and all that exists-.
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner -and the Only Ruling Judge- of the Day of Recompense.
5. You -Alone- we worship, and You -Alone- we ask for help.
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not -the way- of those who earned Your Anger -nor of those who went astray.
I don't if this enough prayer, or you want me to do more.
Do you really think God would waste his time communicating his will to us, and then allow it to be so corrupted that we don't know what the word of God is?
That is not the right question. The question is: Will you believe that any word is the word of GOD while it is clear that it is not the word of GOD?
For example: The Book of Hebrews no one knows who wrote it. Unknown person wrote a message to another unknown person, talking about something. Then you want me to believe that it is the word of GOD and ask me how GOD didn't preserve his word. Man , it is originaly not the word of GOD to talk about it. (That is only an example).
Another example: How many books do you believe are the word of GOD 66, or 73? When you answer this question then we can talk about the preserved word?
Some people sat one day and picked and choosed which books to be the word of GOD and which are not. Then another group of people said the first group were mistaken in 7 books after may be 1000 years. Which means milions of people died while believing that 7 books are from GOD while they are not? Why do you think GOD allowed that to happen to its word if it is realy his word?
The Bible is not the word of GOD to ask this question. I believe that the word of GOD is never lost, It is in the Quran.
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah)(o 79 o)(79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.)
18 Jun 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdC'mon. You know what "the concept of 'the word of God' is" means to me and what it means to you.
You'll note that the exact same question underlies a few of the questions I've been asking in here. It all depends on what the concept "the Word of God" comprises, doesn't it?
You know about manuscript evidence and all that stuff better than I do by a mile. But it is incomprehensibly irrational to me, that if there is a God, that he would not preserve his revealed determinant will for all time.
Would you explain why it is that I hear the voice of a single author of the 66 books of the bible? Why, after years of reading and studying the bible, I see the continuity and harmony of the whole book in a way that no other writings can be compared? There's no way I can be that delusional.
Have you read and learned so much that you are now convinced that nothing is really true about eternal life? Or, at the very least, no way of really being sure what is true and what is not?
18 Jun 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyI am glad you made this post. I would like to know how you know that the quran is the word of God and not the bible? I rarely get a chance to talk to those of the muslim faith, and it might be interesting to discuss some of our differences.
[b]I wonder if you ever prayed to God to reveal in you who Jesus really is!
As a Muslim I pray at least 5 times a day, I bow down with my face to the ground just like Jesus did. In every prayer I read the first Chapter of Quran at least twice:
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Fatiha)
1. In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
...[text shortened]... to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.)[/b]
After all, we both believe that there is only one God. It would be interesting to debate a little with someone who actually knows there is a God.
18 Jun 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyactually Jesus was God's son and trinty 3into 1
Jesus was a prophet and messanger from GOD, he came with message to Jews who deviated from the law of moses. His tought his 12 disiples so that they could deliver the message to people after him. Jews leaders refused him and tried to kill him. He prayed to GOD to save him and so he was saved. The killed someone else. Jesus didn't create a new religion and s ...[text shortened]... was adopted to be the religion of the roman impire.
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What do you think?
18 Jun 07
Originally posted by josephwI won't presume to tell you what you are thinking, josephw, or what should be convincing to you. I will, however, explain what I and my friends did.
Would you explain why it is that I hear the voice of a single author of the 66 books of the bible? Why, after years of reading and studying the bible, I see the continuity and harmony of the whole book in a way that no other writings can be compared?
I learned to read the gospels not as separate documents but as elements of a single gospel harmony. We hear the adage that scripture must be interpreted first in the light of other scripture, and as we adhere to that in our personal study, we learn to gloss over the pieces of evidence in the text that detract from that view. That's just human nature -- everyone has had the experience of doing it in some area of their life.
So, after years of doing it, I was very good at doing it, and at making a case for the essential harmony of all of the books in the Bible. Where things don't quite match up, you essentially "squint" enough to not be tripped up by it. You chalk up apparent contradictions and problems to our flawed human perception of the matter.
Basically, you start by assuming the harmony of the Bible, and then you extend that assumption to your approach to the gospels. The possibility that disharmonies might be found in the texts themselves is thus prescinded. Do that long enough and things do indeed seem to be in harmony and inerrant.
Quite literally, practice makes perfect.
19 Jun 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdAre you saying that by applying the principal of interpretation of comparing scripture with scripture is actually preventing me from seeing that the bible is flawed and not reliable as the guide to all truth?
I won't presume to tell you what you are thinking, josephw, or what should be convincing to you. I will, however, explain what I and my friends did.
I learned to read the gospels not as separate documents but as elements of a single gospel harmony. We hear the adage that scripture must be interpreted first in the light of other scripture, and as we adh ...[text shortened]... s do indeed seem to be in harmony and inerrant.
Quite literally, practice makes perfect.
I'll admit that our flawed human nature is a cause for misinterpretation, but aren't christians indwelt with the spirit of God, and consequently enabled to understand, spiritually, the word of God?
If for a moment you could presume what I am thinking, what example would you give that would illustrate how I 'gloss over' evidence in the text?