Absolute Truth

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your words:

If that is the purpose then how it is achieved seems irrelevant. Feel free to disagree, I am happy to allow you whatever purpose makes you happy.

So your question should be "What makes you happy?" I tend to choose the route that causes the least suffering to others if I can, and am often made happy by the happiness of others. Still not seeing where I said I had no limits or needed to do unpleasant things to others to be happy. Or is that how you get your kicks?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like religions that require / promote self-delusion?

One might argue that would be all of them.

Originally posted by Kepler
So your question should be "What makes you happy?" I tend to choose the route that causes the least suffering to others if I can, and am often made happy by the happiness of others. Still not seeing where I said I had no limits or needed to do unpleasant things to others to be happy. Or is that how you get your kicks?

[/b] Still not seeing where I said I had no limits...

If that is the purpose then how it is achieved seems irrelevant. Feel free to disagree, I am happy to allow you whatever purpose makes you happy.

Still not seeing where I said I .... needed to do unpleasant things to others to be happy.

Never said you did.

Or is that how you get your kicks?

Why would you think that?

So your question should be "What makes you happy?"

How so?

Originally posted by Kepler
One might argue that would be all of them.

I know of no well-known religion / "spiritual path" that doesn't. Do you?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Still not seeing where I said I had no limits...

If that is the purpose then how it is achieved seems irrelevant. Feel free to disagree, I am happy to allow you whatever purpose makes you happy.

Still not seeing where I said I .... needed to do unpleasant things to others to be happy.

Never said you ...[text shortened]... would you think that?

So your question should be "What makes you happy?"

How so?[/b]

I see, you think that my arguing that how the happiness is achieved is irrelevant means I have no limits. I would say that the obvious limit is that which makes me unhappy. Furthermore, as I said earlier, momentary pleasure does not equate to living a happy life. Any of the actions you mentioned as likely to bring me happiness are actually unlikely to do so since I would likely be be caught and incarcerated thus causing unhappiness, not to mention my dislike of causing unhappiness in others. So there you are, limits in place just not the ones you wanted probably.

That is why I suggested you should have been asking what makes me happy. Even if nasty behaviour makes me happy, i'd still have limits. Again the obvious limit is that which would make me unhappy.

I asked if that was the way you get your kicks because it occurred to me that you might think I gain happiness from the acts mentioned because you have personal experience of such and thought I might be similar.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I know of no well-known religion / "spiritual path" that doesn't. Do you?

Nope, but then I don't go in for god bothering of any kind.

Originally posted by Kepler
I see, you think that my arguing that how the happiness is achieved is irrelevant means I have no limits. I would say that the obvious limit is that which makes me unhappy. Furthermore, as I said earlier, momentary pleasure does not equate to living a happy life. Any of the actions you mentioned as likely to bring me happiness are actually unlikely to do so s ...[text shortened]... the acts mentioned because you have personal experience of such and thought I might be similar.

Actually, I was looking to discuss this in the abstract. Seems like your position regarding "happiness" makes little sense if one considers the implications of such a system. I guess I'll just have to assume that you aren't prepared to have such a discussion.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually, I was looking to discuss this in the abstract. Seems like your position regarding "happiness" makes little sense if one considers the implications of such a system. I guess I'll just have to assume that you aren't prepared to have such a discussion.

So far you have suggested I have no limits and wouldn't stop at serial murder, pedophilia etc. How does that start an abstract discussion of happiness or whatever it is you wish to discuss?

Originally posted by Kepler
So far you have suggested I have no limits and wouldn't stop at serial murder, pedophilia etc. How does that start an abstract discussion of happiness or whatever it is you wish to discuss?

Seems you've read things into what I've written that are not there. If you're interested in having an abstract discussion, go back and reread our discussion bearing in mind that I'm looking to have an abstract discussion of your paradigm.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Seems you've read things into what I've written that are not there. If you're interested in having an abstract discussion, go back and reread our discussion bearing in mind that I'm looking to have an abstract discussion of your paradigm.

OK, so I guess we start here?

If our purpose is to live a happy life then how you achieve that happiness is irrelevant.

Your reply was:

What leads you to believe that "our purpose is to live a happy life"?

What leads you to believe that "how you achieve that happiness is irrelevant"?

In answer to the first, I said "If our purpose..." so I don't necessarily believe that is our purpose. It's as good a purpose as any if we must have a purpose beyond ensuring the survival of a portion of our genetic material.

In answer to the second, to me the means for achieving a happy life, seem irrelevant. This is partly because some means would lead to unhappiness thus preventing the achievement of the purpose.

Better?

Originally posted by Kepler
OK, so I guess we start here?

If our purpose is to live a happy life then how you achieve that happiness is irrelevant.

Your reply was:

What leads you to believe that "our purpose is to live a happy life"?

What leads you to believe that "how you achieve that happiness is irrelevant"?

In answer to the first, I said "If our purpose..." so I don't ans would lead to unhappiness thus preventing the achievement of the purpose.

Better?

In answer to the first, I said "If our purpose..." so I don't necessarily believe that is our purpose. It's as good a purpose as any if we must have a purpose beyond ensuring the survival of a portion of our genetic material.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. What do you "necessarily believe" is our purpose? Actually let's get away from the word 'purpose' since it has certain connotations that are hard to get away from. So what do you believe should be the ultimate goal?

In answer to the second, to me the means for achieving a happy life, seem irrelevant. This is partly because some means would lead to unhappiness thus preventing the achievement of the purpose.

You seem to be on both sides of the fence here. Either "the means for achieving a happly life" is relevant or it isn't. Which is it? Do you believe that the "happiness" of others is relevant?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What leads you to believe that "our purpose is to live a happy life"?

What leads you to believe that "how you achieve that happiness is irrelevant"?

Aristotle said that happiness is the one thing we seek for itself and not in order to get some other thing. If true, happiness is a sort of absolute.

Originally posted by JS357
Aristotle said that happiness is the one thing we seek for itself and not in order to get some other thing. If true, happiness is a sort of absolute.

It's only true for those who see "happiness" as the ultimate goal.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's only true for those who see "happiness" as the ultimate goal.

The idea is not that happiness is simply what we all run around trying to get, clearly some are working on career satisfaction, some on family, some on personal salvation, some on good works, some on a mix of these things, but it is the state of being that achievement of our goal produces in us, to the degree those goals are neared or achieved.

Aristotle ties happiness to virtue.

http://coachingtohappiness.com/aristotle-virtues-happiness.html

quote

Aristotle believed virtues led to happiness

The happiness that Aristotle spoke of was not necessarily the same that we would think of today. Today our view of happiness tends to be hedonic. We want to feel good immediately and tend not to think too far ahead. So we see a night out or a pleasant activity as a route to happiness.

The ancient Greeks had a very different perspective on happiness. Aristotle spoke about achieving eudaimonia, which is roughly translated into happiness.

Eudaimonia is not an emotional state; it is more about being all that you can, fulfilling your potential. The idea is that by living in a way that reaches your full potential you bloom or flourish and so display the best version of you that you can be.

Aristotle thought that the practice of virtues would equate to happiness, in the sense of being all you could be. By virtues, Aristotle meant the act of achieving balance and moderation.

unquote

It goes on from there.

Originally posted by JS357
The idea is not that happiness is simply what we all run around trying to get, clearly some are working on career satisfaction, some on family, some on personal salvation, some on good works, some on a mix of these things, but it is the state of being that achievement of our goal produces in us, to the degree those goals are neared or achieved.

Aristotle ti ...[text shortened]... ristotle meant the act of achieving balance and moderation.

unquote

It goes on from there.

You made the following statement:

Aristotle said that happiness is the one thing we seek for itself and not in order to get some other thing.

I responded with the following:

It's only true for those who see "happiness" as the ultimate goal.

You don't seem to have addressed this with your post.


The idea is not that happiness is simply what we all run around trying to get, clearly some are working on career satisfaction, some on family, some on personal salvation, some on good works, some on a mix of these things, but it is the state of being that achievement of our goal produces in us, to the degree those goals are neared or achieved.

You had said, "Aristotle said that happiness is the one thing we seek for itself...". Doesn't seem like one can both "seek" and not "try to get". The truth of the matter is that "happiness" seems to be exactly what the vast majority of people have as their ultimate goal whether they want to admit it or not. Even those who seek "personal salvation" are ultimately seeking "happiness".