Originally posted by vistesdMy main question will remain no matter whose, or with what idea of
[b]Do you think there are really good paths in life, and bad ones if the end is the same for both, as in nothing?
[/b]I’m inclined to think so, yes. But you’re right, in that in my post I put it on a purely personal level. So…let me grapple with it some more. (Part of the problem is that I don’t yet have a clearly-defined general moral philosophy; though there are clearly several out there that others have articulated in these threads.)[/b]
right and wrong you come back with. Will it matter outside of life?
If there is nothing, and all paths lead to nothing, does it matter
if one takes I 80, or the Parkway Ave. to reach the end, if both and
all roads and choices get you to the same place in the end?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe end is not the goal; the road is the goal.
My main question will remain no matter whose, or with what idea of
right and wrong you come back with. Will it matter outside of life?
If there is nothing, and all paths lead to nothing, does it matter
if one takes I 80, or the Parkway Ave. to reach the end, if both and
all roads and choices get you to the same place in the end?
Kelly
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Originally posted by KneverKnightFine, than it does not matter since no matter what choice you make
The end is not the goal; the road is the goal.
you are on the road, no one gets off this ride till they die. If there
is nothing after this life is over, you can sit on your butt all day, or
get up and act, badly, or with honor all end up dead and in nothing!
You really believe this to be the case?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayWill it matter outside of life?
My main question will remain no matter whose, or with what idea of
right and wrong you come back with. Will it matter outside of life?
If there is nothing, and all paths lead to nothing, does it matter
if one takes I 80, or the Parkway Ave. to reach the end, if both and
all roads and choices get you to the same place in the end?
Kelly
If there is no outside of life, the simple answer to that one is, “No.” And that would be the only answer, whether I find it “satisfactory” or not.
The other question you have raised here, though, is “Do you think there are really good paths in life, and bad ones if the end is the same for both, as in nothing?” My answer to that was a qualified Yes, but I realize that I have only done so on a purely personal basis—i.e., my life. Your question is really broader than that, and so I haven’t really given a fair answer.
Originally posted by KellyJayIf all paths lead to death, then one should be vigilant concerning the way one lives.
My main question will remain no matter whose, or with what idea of
right and wrong you come back with. Will it matter outside of life?
If there is nothing, and all paths lead to nothing, does it matter
if one takes I 80, or the Parkway Ave. to reach the end, if both and
all roads and choices get you to the same place in the end?
Kelly
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Originally posted by bbarrIf your views of your life no matter what you have made of it is
If all paths lead to death, then one should be vigilant concerning the way one lives.
all for nothing in the end, pride in your path would simply be
vanity, nothing more correct? While here the fool is as precious
as the wise, because both end in the grave, if there is nothing
more what does it matter if one was a fool or wise while on earth
since the same end awaits both? What would being vigilant matter
the way one lives his life if nothing is waiting for us? You may be
filled with joy, filled with pain, filled with wisdom, or a raving fool,
all end up the same. If nothing is all there is after we leave this
place in the end, viglance is vanity carrying you along toward the
nothing that is to come.
Only in life does anything matter, if life goes on even after we
leave this place, what matters there may not be the same things
that matter here to us now.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay"What is it do you have that gives you the
What is a right thing if they both get you the same thing, nothing
in the end?
Your right thing lasts only in life, this life, again as I said, only in life
does any of this matter. What is it do you have that gives you the
ability to call something right or wrong, you after all are only a small
tiny blip in time speck of life, with no more importanc ...[text shortened]... you. If you are right about there being
nothing after this life time we are in that is.
Kelly
ability to call something right or wrong"
- self respect and moral awarenesss.
"you after all are only a small
tiny blip in time speck of life, with no more importance then the
next blip sitting next to you."
- I am starting to understand why you are devoted to religion. It must be blissful escape from your pesimistic, jaundiced,and pathetic view of life.
Originally posted by howardgeeThe unsubstantiating weak-insult king strikes again. Self respect and moral awarenesss? Please answer the question rather than attacking Kelly's position. You seem to have no grounds to make anything other than ad hominems and insults when faced with questions you can't answer.
"What is it do you have that gives you the
ability to call something right or wrong"
- self respect and moral awarenesss.
"you after all are only a small
tiny blip in time speck of life, with no more importance then the
next blip sitting next to you."
- I am starting to understand why you are devoted to religion. It must be blissful escape from your pesimistic, jaundiced,and pathetic view of life.
Self respect and moral awareness, where and how do you derive these in your pathetic existance?
Originally posted by Halitosethat's "existEnce" moron.
The unsubstantiating weak-insult king strikes again. Self respect and moral awarenesss? Please answer the question rather than attacking Kelly's position. You seem to have no grounds to make anything other than ad hominems and insults when faced with questions you can't answer.
Self respect and moral awareness, where and how do you derive these in your pathetic existance?
Originally posted by howardgee“-self respect and moral awarenesss."
"What is it do you have that gives you the
ability to call something right or wrong"
- self respect and moral awarenesss.
"you after all are only a small
tiny blip in time speck of life, with no more importance then the
next blip sitting next to you."
- I am starting to understand why you are devoted to religion. It must be blissful escape from your pesimistic, jaundiced,and pathetic view of life.
I'm not going to belittle your spelling, it doesn't add to the points
being made and your points matter as much as mine or anyone
else’s here. If you understood the argument being made, the main
theme of my queries has to do with the end of our lives, and the
position that if nothing is all that awaits us, what does any of our
views, our personal tastes, our “self-respect and moral awareness”
really matter? We all end up the same, our so called good, bad,
indifferent, the theist, the atheist, the agnostic and so on, the wise,
the fool, and on and on all die taking nothing with them. Being rich
in the end does not matter, and neither will being poor, being free
or a slave we bring nothing into to this life and not being able to
take anything out levels the playing ground in death, it is the great
equalizer. That is and only is if nothing awaits us after death, if
this your belief, that there is nothing after this life, do you agree that
only in life does anything matter, and it matters only as long as there
is life? If you agree, than does it not stand to reason, that no path no
matter how noble we say it is, or wicked we claim it is, are all the
same, they all go to the same place, nothing?
“I am starting to understand why you are devoted to religion. It must
be blissful escape from your pesimistic, jaundiced, and pathetic view
of life.”
I’m attempting to address the belief of what it really means if there is
nothing after this life, which I believe is your point of view. We can do
a compare and contrast to my beliefs on the afterlife if you wish. I’d
submit that looking at both side by side doesn’t mean much, it would
simply be a matter of personal taste on which people prefer, none of
which settles what is true or not. The settling of truth will only occur
when we die, if you go into oblivion and nothingness, you are right
you will just will not know it, and if you find yourself standing before
God, or a something, or someone else, you will know you were wrong,
and depending on the outcome of what happens next, how great an
error you made will become apparent to you only then.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay...but of course the effects of what we have done will continue after we die.
“-self respect and moral awarenesss."
I'm not going to belittle your spelling, it doesn't add to the points
being made and your points matter as much as mine or anyone
else’s here. If you understood the argument being made, the main
theme of my queries has to do with the end of our lives, and the
position that if [b]nothing is all that awaits ...[text shortened]... of what happens next, how great an
error you made will become apparent to you only then.
Kelly[/b]
Our children live on ... and the other people we have helped to shape ...and the people they affect..and so on and so forth.
And we have an environmental effect.
Of course we will have absolutely no effect on the world if we spend our entire life praying to a non-existent God!
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Originally posted by KellyJayHi KJ.
If your views of your life no matter what you have made of it is
all for nothing in the end, pride in your path would simply be
vanity, nothing more correct? While here the fool is as precious
as the wise, because both end in the grave, if there is nothing
more what does it matter if one was a fool or wise while on earth
since the same end awaits both? ...[text shortened]... ve this place, what matters there may not be the same things
that matter here to us now.
Kelly
The crux of the problem I think lies in the faulty reasoning that if there is no ultimate or greater purpose to life, then there is no purpose whatsoever to life. The crux of the problem lies in the sleight of hand that WL Craig performs when he says "because (man) ends in nothing, he is nothing." This notion is faulty because regardless of whether God exists, my actions clearly have meaning if for no other reason than they carry immediate and prolonged consequences that serve as sufficient justification. Consider the following words by Thomas Nagel:
"Life does not consist of a sequence of activities each of which has as its purpose some later member of the sequence. Chains of justification come repeatedly to an end within life, and whether the process as a whole can be justified has no bearing on the finality of these end-points....No larger context or further purpose is needed to prevent these acts from being pointless."
As an illustration, consider one of Nagel's own examples: the action of preventing a young child from unknowingly placing her hand on a burning hot stove. Working under the assumption that God and immortality do not exist, according to you, the act of preventing the child from burning herself is completely meaningless, in the sense that it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever whether one chooses to act or not. But this is clearly mistaken: the act and the choice before me are not meaningless, for there are real consequences to be endured and lived with if I choose inaction. The immediate consequence will likely be that the child is burned and pained; the prolonged consequences will likely be more pain and suffering as the child must live with injury. Therefore, the action of preventing the injury is not pointless or meaningless; to the contrary, the action is completely justified and made reasonable based simply on reflection of the probable consequences. Exactly how would the act require any further outside justification? Exactly how does the existence of God or immortality have any bearing on such a set of circumstances? Do you really think that the question of whether God and immortality exist impacts how one would or should approach the unfolding situation as he sees the child's hand move toward the stove? Regardless of whether God and immortality exist, the consequences stemming from the choice between action and inaction will be imminent and real. I think this is an example of "chains of justification" terminating completely within life, as Nagel puts it. Life is altogether teeming with similar examples, ranging from the mundane (Nagle also notes that 'No further justification is needed to make it reasonable to take aspirin for a headache'😉 to the momentous. Likewise, since my actions and choices are meaningful, so too is the entire collective process by which I carry out such actions and arrive at such choices. In short, life is not meaningless, even if we do "end in nothing." Even if you awoke tomorrow with certain realization that God and immortality do not exist, you would still fall all over yourself reaching for your young one's hand if she unknowingly went for the stove top.