1 edit
Originally posted by amannionI'm not trying to "convince" you or anybody else of anything; I'm just explaining what I believe. Whether it's true or not, I really have no idea. I'm "gambling" that there is a just God. Whether there is or not is another story. The evidence seems to indicate that if there is a God, He's either unable or unwilling to clean up our current mess. I am unable to give a rational defense of Christianity. People ten-times brighter than me can argue both sides of the issue far more eloquently than me. My Christian belief is rooted in wishful-thinking and the fear of death (square those two, if you can).
Doesn't sound all that convincing.
According to your understanding of the NT ...?
Given your stated fear of death and desire to escape hell, wouldn't it be prudent to be a little more sure of yourself?
Originally posted by gaychessplayerThe problem with pascals wager is it assumes:
I'm not trying to "convince" you or anybody else of anything; I'm just explaining what I believe. Whether it's true or not, I really have no idea. I'm "gambling" that there is a just God. Whether there is or not is another story. The evidence seems to indicate that if there is a God, He's either unable or unwilling to clean up our current mess. ...[text shortened]... ief is rooted in wishful-thinking and the fear of death (square those two, if you can).
1. If God exists then the God concept you are betting on it the right one.
2. There is a fairly good chance that God exists.
3. The disadvantages of believing in a non-existent God are not large.
It seems to me that you, like most gamblers, are being deceived by the house into thinking the odds are better than they really are. Have you ever seen the words "you have been selected to stand a chance to win ...". Sounds like you've won doesn't it? Sorry, all it means is you have one in a million chances of winning 1 dollar.
You only picked the religion you currently follow because of where you were born and who you interacted with. You could have been Muslim, Hindu or Jewish for example if you were born somewhere else.
Contrary to your claim, 'the evidence' does not indicate that there is a God.
By choosing to delude yourself you are not only missing out on a lot of great opportunities in your own life but you are causing enormous harm to other people too.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerI greatly fear death, which is why I became a Christian. I think that God might be so vile and disgusting that He'll send me to Hell if I don't worship Him. Of course, the vile God might send everyone to Hell anyway, whether they worship Him or not.--- GchessPLAYER
I greatly fear death, which is why I became a Christian. I think that God might be so vile and disgusting that He'll send me to Hell if I don't worship Him. Of course, the vile God might send everyone to Hell anyway, whether they worship Him or not. I find "Pascal's Wager" compelling. Better to worship and be wrong than to not worship and spend eternity in Hell.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO .......NOOOOOO!!!!!!
This is what the enemy wants you to believe about God!!!! God is nothing like this.
Originally posted by knightmeisterWho is "the enemy" and how do you know what he wants you to believe? How do you know that what you currently believe is not what "the enemy" wants you to believe? Are you really that sure that you are smarter than all the other poor deceived souls? Or do you just think you are lucky to be one of the few who saw through the deception? Or are you simply hopeful that you are one of the few? Or is it a case of "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right".
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO .......NOOOOOO!!!!!!
This is what the enemy wants you to believe about God!!!! God is nothing like this.
Don't fear death. Someone will bury you, or cremate you, if you prefer. Either way, you won't care... after all you are dead.
We all die. Children should be educated on this. It's part of the cycle of life. Instead, they are given a miraculous solution... Believe this and you will live for ever. Behave bad, you'll go to hell. Religion is take advantage of people's fears, and mixes it with a lovely message of "love, peace and blablabla".
Open your eyes. You are human, you will die, enjoy the time here.
Originally posted by serigadoMe either. Will likely put up a helluva fight, though, given the chance.
Don't fear death. Someone will bury you, or cremate you, if you prefer. Either way, you won't care... after all you are dead.
We all die. Children should be educated on this. It's part of the cycle of life. Instead, they are given a miraculous solution... Believe this and you will live for ever. Behave bad, you'll go to hell. Religion is take advantage of ...[text shortened]... peace and blablabla".
Open your eyes. You are human, you will die, enjoy the time here.
Each breath:
One span of life—
Originally posted by gaychessplayerScrew Pascals' Wager, here's my own, we'll call it "Grysons' Wager".
I greatly fear death, which is why I became a Christian. I think that God might be so vile and disgusting that He'll send me to Hell if I don't worship Him. Of course, the vile God might send everyone to Hell anyway, whether they worship Him or not. I find "Pascal's Wager" compelling. Better to worship and be wrong than to not worship and spend eternity in Hell.
We have 3 options.
1: God loves good deeds above all else.
2: God loves when people worship "Him" above all else (i.e. an Angry God).
3: God does not exist.
If option 1 is the case, then whether you believe in "Him" or not, living a virtuous life where you respect others is the best way to go.
If option 2 is the case, then you can bend over backwards and "He"'ll probably still find something to hang you on.
If option 3 is the case, well, then beyond seeking personal contentment for the duration of your whistle stop tour of the sun for the next few decades, it doesn't really matter what you do.
The best of all possible routes is to be a humanist atheist. Respecting others and leading a good but Godless life.
The option 1 God is still happy and forgives you the one oversight given all your hard work, while if option 3 is the case, your efficiency is greatly boosted by not having to waste so much time worshipping, giving you more time to actually do good stuff for your fellow man.
Originally posted by agrysonIf there is no God, why should I "respect others?" I should do whatever makes me happy as long as I can get away with it. There are no ultimate consequences for my actions, so as long as I die happy, that's fine! If I get my kicks from killing innocent people and can get away with it, why not do it?
Screw Pascals' Wager, here's my own, we'll call it "Grysons' Wager".
We have 3 options.
1: God loves good deeds above all else.
2: God loves when people worship "Him" above all else (i.e. an Angry God).
3: God does not exist.
If option 1 is the case, then whether you believe in "Him" or not, living a virtuous life where you respect others is th ...[text shortened]... e worshipping, giving you more time to actually do good stuff for your fellow man.
If there is no God, who's to say what a "good" life is. If there is no God, then the nilihist is right. There is no point or purpose to anything. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall die."
Originally posted by gaychessplayerIf you need a God to respect others, you are a real shame to society. We are conscious beings that made rules (some wrong, some good) to live in society. If you don't behave, you'll face the consequences of your acts... not before god, but first of all among your peers.
If there is no God, why should I "respect others?" I should do whatever makes me happy as long as I can get away with it. There are no ultimate consequences for my actions, so as long as I die happy, that's fine! If I get my kicks from killing innocent people and can get away with it, why not do it?
If there is no God, who's to say what a "goo ...[text shortened]... no point or purpose to anything. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall die."
Live happy, make others happy, find love, respect your neighbour, make your society evolve and be greater: to all of this you don't need any god, only a moral conduct.
Originally posted by serigadoAll moral claims made by atheists are totally subjective. There are no "good" or "bad" rules in any ultimate sense. They simply exist. The only reason in a Godless world to respect others is so that others will respect me. Ultimately, though, in a Godless universe it's just a matter of what I can get away with. In a Godless universe, there is no moral difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa.
If you need a God to respect others, you are a real shame to society. We are conscious beings that made rules (some wrong, some good) to live in society. If you don't behave, you'll face the consequences of your acts... not before god, but first of all among your peers.
Live happy, make others happy, find love, respect your neighbour, make your society evolve and be greater: to all of this you don't need any god, only a moral conduct.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerWhat a crock.
All moral claims made by atheists are totally subjective. There are no "good" or "bad" rules in any ultimate sense. They simply exist. The only reason in a Godless world to respect others is so that others will respect me. Ultimately, though, in a Godless universe it's just a matter of what I can get away with. In a Godless universe, there is no moral difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerOf course they are subjective! THey depend on society. Don't expect morality in the indians of amazons to be the same as mine. It's history and society dependent! Good and bad are defined by what can be called "moral selection". People tend to find what's best for them by own experience and impose it on themselves as "Law".
All moral claims made by atheists are totally subjective. There are no "good" or "bad" rules in any ultimate sense. They simply exist. The only reason in a Godless world to respect others is so that others will respect me. Ultimately, though, in a Godless universe it's just a matter of what I can get away with. In a Godless universe, there is no moral difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa.
Isn't others respecting you enough reason the respect others? For me it is. In a godless universe it's about your objectives, true. So what?? Your objectives should consider your siblings, because we are in a community working for eachother, so other persons wellbeing is ultimately good for you too.
If you need a God to see moral difference between Hitler and Mother Theresa, then please let me tell you: KEEP believing in your God. Don't ever loose your faith or else you will be an awful person.
Originally posted by gaychessplayerWell, you seem not to have understood that it was an alternative to Pascals' Wager in that any of the three options are potentially possible (though option 3 is infinitely, yes, infinitely, more likely). Consequently, as you have to find a way to get the best of all worlds, the only option is to be a humnastic atheist.
If there is no God, why should I "respect others?" I should do whatever makes me happy as long as I can get away with it. There are no ultimate consequences for my actions, so as long as I die happy, that's fine! If I get my kicks from killing innocent people and can get away with it, why not do it?
If there is no God, who's to say what a "goo ...[text shortened]... no point or purpose to anything. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall die."
As for me needing a God for morality, that's just not true. Are you saying that christians or jews or voodoo witchdocotrs or any other form of religious person have a monoploy on morality, that belief in the afterlife and potential punishment and reward are your only reasons for doing good and avoiding bad things?
To be honest, if you still need the promise of reward and punishment to be a moral person then what's the difference between you now, today, and when you were 2 years old when your mum would reward you for using the toilet and punish you for not?
It seems to me that your worldview breaks down to a God who is toilet-training a puppy. Thing is, if that's the case, then surely I, the person who can be moral without fear of punishment or hope of reward am the one who no longer needs it and thus any God who uses such measures would feel they've done a good job but must be rolling their eyes at you wondering what's taking so long before you get the point?
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoI agree, if there is no God then morality is subjective. Hence my claim that in a Godless universe, Hitler and Mother Theresa are morally identical. The U. S. imposes laws respecting a free press and the Nazi's imposed laws taking all rights away from Jews, whom they consequently slaughered. Neither one deserves moral praise nor moral condemnation in a Godless universe.
Of course they are subjective! THey depend on society... It's history and society dependent! Good and bad are defined by what can be called "moral selection". People tend to find what's best for them by own experience and impose it on themselves as "Law" .