Spirituality
21 Apr 09
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by daniel581. Well God does have too follow math like if He made it rain and it rained one google raindrops but He only meant too make it rain one million there would be quite a flood!
1. Well God does have too follow math like if He made it rain and it rained one google raindrops but He only meant too make it rain one million there would be quite a flood!
2. No angels are servants to God
3. What Earth? No.[/b]
Using the natural laws He created versus restricted to the laws He created are two horses of different colors.
2. No angels are servants to God
1 Corinthians 6:3.
3. What Earth? No.
?
09 Jul 09
1. God created natural law.
2. Yes but if you read, 1 Corinthians 5:13, then it says "For them that are without God will judge", you see God is the judge of ALL, HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL, ALL HIS CREATURES ARE HIS SERVANTS, therefore when you quote "Know you not that we shall judge angels?", I can't remember what book it's in but have you ever heard the verse "He shall give thee angels charge over THEE"? Now when Paul said that he was probably referring to pure men who are CONSIDERED as pure as angels, yet their will be 25 judges including Christ at the last judgement 12 from the old law, 12 from the new saying that no matter who you are you will be judged.
3. I'm saying that angels are not dependent on the physical world (meaning Earth) they are spiritual creatures God created them before He created physical matter.
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by Lord SharkSo we should have listened to all those who applied common sense and declared that heavier-than-air flying machines were impossible?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The common sense part of the equation applies, regardless of the topic considered.
So we should have listened to all those who applied common sense and declared that heavier-than-air flying machines were impossible?
If you weren’t flat out saying what you have been clearly flat out saying, we wouldn’t be q ...[text shortened]... which is intelligible and reflects god's nature? Many christians think so.
Let’s try to stay focused, shall we? The common sense to which I was referring in your quote of me had to do with common sense informing us that there is the description of the thing and then there is the thing itself. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well we would actually since clearly you are mistaken in what I've been saying.
More than a few times, the mistakes have been on your end--- when you attempt to have me say something not being said, or apply one thing I said to something else entirely.
I don't think so.
You don’t think so… what, exactly? You don’t think that logic isn’t a philosophy?
What I've been repeatedly contending is that you are not in an epistemic position to make your declaration that god is not bound by logic.
I’ve given you my basis for doing so. Move on.
Since logic could be integral to god's nature and god is bound by that nature, to support your case you would have to demonstrate that we as humans are not simply parroting this aspect of god's nature.
I’ve already called you on this, yet you continue returning to the same thing. You are here saying “logic could be integral to” God’s nature. I have asked you to back that statement up. Other than showing similarities between His actions and lines consistent with some aspect of logic, you will not be able to prove your assertion.
You keep asserting that logic is not transcendent, yet I notice that christians who seem every bit as convinced as you are nonetheless use logic as an exempar of abstract universal truth which must come from god.
I’ve seen the same argument from language, music and any other manner of organized information. They’re not bad arguments, but I think you may have missed their intent. The argument is simply using those constructs which are unavoidable to the everyday life on this planet, i.e., language, information or etc., and--- using that common sense we discussed earlier, that there is a description, and then there is the thing itself--- then draw a conclusion that since man orders his thoughts, there must be an ultimate Thinker.
They are called presuppositionalists. I'm sure you've heard of them. But I guess they are the kind of completely convinced yet wrong sort of christian, whereas you are the other sort.
I’m not sure what you mean by all of this.
You probably are. I base this on the many mutually contradictory things that the various christian denominations profess, each with their own unique access to what god has told them about how to play the game.
Or, you could simply chalk it up to misuse of the information. That’s what I do. Wheat among the chaff and all that.
If only it were enough, then there wouldn't be such a diversity of interpretation.
People have been adding to and taking away from the word of God since man first started hearing Him speak. Nothing new there.
I have insisted no such thing.
Sure you have. Take a look at your own words, five short paragraphs above this one.
I have only said, following the standard theology, that god is subject to god's nature and I have questioned your basis for excluding logic from that, since human concepts like 'justice' pose no problem in this regard.
For one, logic is more than coherence or consistency (two areas wherein God’s actions and logic overlap in agreement). As stated, logic is a philosophy, a way of thinking. It is not truth.
For two, our understanding of God’s nature--- as it relates to divine revelation, or what He has chosen to tell us about Himself--- is only found in the Bible. No where in that Bible do I see logic listed as one of God’s attributes.
For three, justice is not a human construction. It came to us from God Himself.
It isn't me who thinks this, I'm an atheist. it is other christians who place an emphasis on biblical exegesis being informed and enhanced via revelation from god as god's plan unfolds.
I’m not certain what you mean by this.
I like that. Although differentiation into pieces is a feature of the world.
I agree. It’s a little mind-blowing to think of the breadth and depth of His knowledge, but I guess that’s part of what makes Him God.
But nor have you demonstrated that the man made system called logic is not the flawed human analogue of an aspect of god's nature manifest in creation, for surely the universe is redolent with this quality, namely intelligibility?
Actually, I think that’s exactly what logic is: an inferior shadow attempt at ordering as first seen in God’s complete order of all things. However, whereas logic can lead to all manner of error, God’s complete order of all things is bound by Truth without deviation. Moreover, logic is about reality, not reality itself. Justice, knowledge and any other of God’s attributes are not about anything: they are the thing itself.
That's my point, for all you know, that's why logic works.
As stated, logic misleads as well. It can be just as much about wrong as right.
Recall, you are the one that sought to make declarative statements regarding god's attributes, in fact you specifically stated that god was not bound by logic.
I still stand by the same.
Since then you have been accelerating around a circular argument, yet you have failed to provide a basis for your statement which is consistent with ascribing other attributes to god, such as justice.
Where is the circular argument? My basis, again, is the Bible.
In summary, is god bound by man made systems? No, by definition.
I’m glad we finally agree.
Is logic purely man made or is it man's mirroring of god's creation, which is intelligible and reflects god's nature? Many christians think so.
There are other things man does which reflect some aspect of God’s actions or attributes. Why aren’t you honing in on them and declaring these man-constructed concepts as God’s attributes as well?
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by daniel581. God created natural law.
1. God created natural law.
2. Yes but if you read, 1 Corinthians 5:13, then it says "For them that are without God will judge", you see God is the judge of ALL, HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL, ALL HIS CREATURES ARE HIS SERVANTS, therefore when you quote "Know you not that we shall judge angels?", I can't remember what book it's in but have you ever heard the ver ...[text shortened]... Earth) they are spiritual creatures God created them before He created physical matter.[/b]
And... ?
2. Yes but if you read...
I'm not sure what point you're making here.
3. I'm saying that angels are not dependent on the physical world (meaning Earth) they are spiritual creatures God created them before He created physical matter.
Okay. Correct, they are not dependent upon the earth as are we. However, they were part of the created world prior to the re-creation of the earth and man. "In beginning, God... " not "In beginning, God and the angels..."
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by FreakyKBH1. So their is no difference.
[b]1. God created natural law.
And... ?
2. Yes but if you read...
I'm not sure what point you're making here.
3. I'm saying that angels are not dependent on the physical world (meaning Earth) they are spiritual creatures God created them before He created physical matter.
Okay. Correct, they are not dependent upon the earth as ...[text shortened]... of the earth and man. "In beginning, God... " not "In beginning, God and the angels..."[/b]
2. What don't you get?
3. They neither were nor are part of the created world, re-creation of the Earth and man? Yes but God made the angels BEFORE He created PHYSICAL SUBSTANCE!
- Joined
- 30 May 09
- Moves
- 30120
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI’m glad we finally agree.
[b]So we should have listened to all those who applied common sense and declared that heavier-than-air flying machines were impossible?
Let’s try to stay focused, shall we? The common sense to which I was referring in your quote of me had to do with common sense informing us that there is the description of the thing and then there is the thing itsel ...[text shortened]... m and declaring these man-constructed concepts as God’s attributes as well?[/b]
I think we do deep down, apart from on the small matter of god's existence.
Let's face it, we could argue this back and forth forever, since unlike chess, this kind of debate rarely terminates.
I was intruiged by this strategy:
Sure you have. Take a look at your own words, five short paragraphs above this one.
The reason for this is that anybody who can parse sentences can see that I haven't. I have said that logic could be part of god's nature, and have questioned your basis for ruling this out. But actually there is a problem of language here, since if by 'logic' you mean the human system of thought to which god could not be subject, and I mean that part of god's nature that gives the world intelligibility and gives rise to the human system of logic, we are going to continue to talk past each other. We have a conception of justice, and by your reasoning that must be our imperfect analogue of god's perfect justice. Yet when I make the same argument for logic you have a particular beef.
More than a few times, the mistakes have been on your end
I accept that some mistakes will be on my end, as that is inevitable in any dialogue. Of course, agreement between us on particular instances is unlikely, just as you will not agree when I call you on particular issues, and it is probable that sometimes you will be right.
If you want to declare this a win for you, fair enough, in any case, thanks for a civilised debate. On the points where you are unclear about what I meant, if you really want further clarification, just ask and I'll try to express myself more clearly.
I wish you well.
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by Lord SharkGOD'S EXISTENCE IS NOT A SMALL MATTER!!!
[b]I’m glad we finally agree.
I think we do deep down, apart from on the small matter of god's existence.
Let's face it, we could argue this back and forth forever, since unlike chess, this kind of debate rarely terminates.
I was intruiged by this strategy:
Sure you have. Take a look at your own words, five short paragraphs above this one. ...[text shortened]... arification, just ask and I'll try to express myself more clearly.
I wish you well.
09 Jul 09
Originally posted by buckkyPray very, very hard for the truth and it will be brought to you...
We go back and forth trying to convince the other that our position is the one that's right, and none of us really know anything about what we speak. The whole spiritual question is up for grabs because we have no Spiritual being we can go to and get the Truth from. We have holy books that are suppose to tell us all we need to know about God or the afterlife ...[text shortened]... e hide and seek thing ? Why is it soo drapped in mystery, and confusion ? I know I'm confused.