Aggravating is it not ?

Originally posted by buckky
We go back and forth trying to convince the other that our position is the one that's right, and none of us really know anything about what we speak. The whole spiritual question is up for grabs because we have no Spiritual being we can go to and get the Truth from. We have holy books that are suppose to tell us all we need to know about God or the afterlife ...[text shortened]... e hide and seek thing ? Why is it soo drapped in mystery, and confusion ? I know I'm confused.

Religion is the last bastion of the dispossessed. Pouring over moldy tomes and singing the praise of an imaginary being is the worst form of lie. Lying to yourself that some imaginary, religous security blanket will protect you from death is foolishness. You're born, you live, you die. All that death holds is an infinte black well.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Religion is the last bastion of the dispossessed. Pouring over moldy tomes and singing the praise of an imaginary being is the worst form of lie. Lying to yourself that some imaginary, religous security blanket will protect you from death is foolishness. You're born, you live, you die. All that death holds is an infinte black well.

I sure hope your wrong. Life would have no charm or poetry without some kind meaning behind it all. I can't look up into the night sky and believe it's all one big fluke. I can't read great works of literature, and think this is written by just another meaningless piece of meat. Certain music gives me a glimpse at something much more than sound. I have no idea as to what the meaning of it all is, but I can't shake the feeling that there is meaning, and intelligence behind creation. Call me wacky.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
OK - so why did God even make earth? It would have been so much better if he had just started by creating heaven, with only those people who cannot sin, yet have their free will.

Just think - no suffering, no death, no torment in hell. What's not to like here?!

OK - so why did God even make earth?
That's a longer story than the attention span of this type of forum will allow.

It would have been so much better if he had just started by creating heaven, with only those people who cannot sin, yet have their free will.
First off, the adjective "better" isn't very quantified near enough to be considered objective. Nonetheless, when He eventually got around to creating man, said creation was without sin. Although the potential to choose against God was there, the creation was free of any taint whatsoever.

Similarly, each of us is faced with the same scenario every second of every day: shall I use this moment to continue in God's provision, or shall I step away and attempt a go on my own?

Originally posted by buckky
I sure hope your wrong. Life would have no charm or poetry without some kind meaning behind it all. I can't look up into the night sky and believe it's all one big fluke. I can't read great works of literature, and think this is written by just another meaningless piece of meat. Certain music gives me a glimpse at something much more than sound. I have no ide ...[text shortened]... 't shake the feeling that there is meaning, and intelligence behind creation. Call me wacky.

Pity. Life is made more precious by it's finite nature and, as a result, every sacrifice that much more poignant and poetic.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Pity. Life is made more precious by it's finite nature and, as a result, every sacrifice that much more poignant and poetic.

It good you can draw comfort from that kind of view, but I can't. Once you have experienced life you can't imagine what it would be like to not have it. I have felt for many years that I am more than the flesh, and bones I use for getting around in. It could be a sign of mental illness or maybe a correct awarness of the situation we are all in. Just having this conversation seems beyond the physical world. Two
pieces of meaningless meat talking about the nature of things does not seem right. It must be more.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
First off, the adjective "better" isn't very quantified near enough to be considered objective.

Is this really the best you can do?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Is this really the best you can do?

You go from "better" to "best" and don't even consider the ramifications. Bully!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You go from "better" to "best" and don't even consider the ramifications. Bully!

Aren't the ramifications obvious? Do I really need to list all the wars, diseases, famines, natural disasters, plagues, etc. that mankind has suffered throughout the years?

So let's hear it. Give me one good reason why God shouldn't have created just heaven with only good people in it.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Aren't the ramifications obvious? Do I really need to list all the wars, diseases, famines, natural disasters, plagues, etc. that mankind has suffered throughout the years?

So let's hear it. Give me one good reason why God shouldn't have created just heaven with only good people in it.

The ramifications are completely lost on you.

In your cleverness, you consider your questions effective in exposing the logic gaps that individual believers have somehow overlooked, or that perhaps God Himself didn't think of prior to establishing creation. Instead, you have simply revealed your own faulty thinking.

Consider this. In my neck of the woods, there is a moral dilemma currently raging. John Demjanjuk, an 89 year-old grandfather with some health issues, is facing deportation for his efforts during WWII as a Nazi concentration camp guard. His prosecutors hold that Demjanjuk needs to face his crimes against humanity. His family and friends hold that doing so wouldn't be nice, given his age and condition.

What is "better" or "best" in this situation? Make his family happy? Make the family of those he tortured happy?

The point is, without a standard of righteousness, of justice, there is nothing by which to gauge what is better or best, let alone what constitutes suffering.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The ramifications are completely lost on you.

In your cleverness, you consider your questions effective in exposing the logic gaps that individual believers have somehow overlooked, or that perhaps God Himself didn't think of prior to establishing creation. Instead, you have simply revealed your own faulty thinking.

Consider this. In my neck of the ...[text shortened]... is nothing by which to gauge what is better or best, let alone what constitutes suffering.

FAIL

Originally posted by SwissGambit
FAIL

At least you can admit it.

Originally posted by buckky
It good you can draw comfort from that kind of view, but I can't. Once you have experienced life you can't imagine what it would be like to not have it. I have felt for many years that I am more than the flesh, and bones I use for getting around in. It could be a sign of mental illness or maybe a correct awarness of the situation we are all in. Just having th ...[text shortened]... s of meaningless meat talking about the nature of things does not seem right. It must be more.

Yes, you are "more than" just meat. There are psychological properties that arise from the mere meaty substrate, and with these come meaning and value and real content to your existence. The fact that you will die one day and thereby cease to exist simply doesn't change this. You can try to understand death for what it really is; alternatively, I guess you can try to entertain a bunch of silly fairy tales in attempt at consolation. Maybe you can even will yourself into believing that you won't really die when you die.

In true knightmeisterian fashion, you keep starting thread after thread. In one of these, you mention that you'll not be pushed around by a fear of God. So you'd rather be pushed around by a fear of death?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The ramifications are completely lost on you.

In your cleverness, you consider your questions effective in exposing the logic gaps that individual believers have somehow overlooked, or that perhaps God Himself didn't think of prior to establishing creation. Instead, you have simply revealed your own faulty thinking.

Consider this. In my neck of the ...[text shortened]... is nothing by which to gauge what is better or best, let alone what constitutes suffering.

What is "better" or "best" in this situation?

Well, gee, your god could have simply made it such that the Holocaust and all the suffering thereof never obtained in the first place.

It's really like you just don't get the problem of suffering. What kind of "standard" do you need to conclude that, say, the Holocaust involved a lot of unnecessary suffering? This would still be clear even under a marginally brain-dead standard.

Originally posted by LemonJello
What is "better" or "best" in this situation?

Well, gee, your god could have simply made it such that the Holocaust and all the suffering thereof never obtained in the first place.

It's really like you just don't get the problem of suffering. What kind of "standard" do you need to conclude that, say, the Holocaust involved a lot of unnecessary suffering? This would still be clear even under a marginally brain-dead standard.[/b]

Well, gee, since your moral compass of suffering is so finely tuned and powerful, it shouldn't require too much of an effort on your part to answer the question put forth. Namely, in the case of this elderly man facing deportation, whose suffering ought to be relieved?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
At least you can admit it.

Yes, I believe I can. The ability to admit when you have failed is a sign of strength, not weakness.