Originally posted by LemonJelloI could be pushed around by almost anything. You don't fear death ?
Yes, you are "more than" just meat. There are psychological properties that arise from the mere meaty substrate, and with these come meaning and value and real content to your existence. The fact that you will die one day and thereby cease to exist simply doesn't change this. You can try to understand death for what it really is; alternatively, I guess ...[text shortened]... t be pushed around by a fear of God. So you'd rather be pushed around by a fear of death?
I wish I was as brave you if that's the case. I think the true meaning of death is I will no longer be around in any form. Dust to dust so to speak. It sounds dim. You could be right I have no idea, but I hope not for my sake, and your's.
1 edit
Originally posted by buckkyI believe you missed my point. My disgust was not aimed at your fear of death per se, but rather at the way you let it "push you around" into endorsing obviously terrible lines of reasoning. Look, I am not blaming you for fearing death. I think when confronted with the fear of death, there are certain practices we can adopt to pacify through dissolution of the ego, such as Dharma practice. But regardless, in fact, I have argued on these boards that there are conditions under which a fear of death can be 'well-grounded' (for instance, there was a good thread by dottewell called "Dread of Death" if I recall correctly, if you can find it). These conditions may or may not hold in your case; but the point is that I was not casting blame on your fear of death in itself but rather the way you erroneously took it to bear on the truth of theism. Go ahead and cultivate a healthy, well-grounded fear of death; but don't let it push you around into obviously fallacious lines of thought, such as "Death really scares me; therefore, there must be some god out there who will grant me everlasting life." These types of arguments don't deserve to be taken seriously.
I could be pushed around by almost anything. You don't fear death ?
I wish I was as brave you if that's the case. I think the true meaning of death is I will no longer be around in any form. Dust to dust so to speak. It sounds dim. You could be right I have no idea, but I hope not for my sake, and your's.
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYet again, you miss the point. The point you are trying to make with your example is not even relevant, for I can fully concede the point to you that ethics on the whole is not something that can be reduced to simple deliberations based on simple codification. Yes, there are any number of instances in which moral matters and our deliberations on them are textured and intricate. My conceding this point in no way diminishes the thrust of the problem of suffering because there are nevertheless any number of instances that are clear-cut even under, as I mentioned, a brain-dead "standard". If a peaceful, prosperous village gets obliterated by a tsunami, for example, what kind of "standard" do you need to say justifiably that we would have been better off if the tsunami hadn't obliterated the village? What kind of "standard" do you need to say that we would have been better off if fewer persons had suffered and died during the Holocaust?
Well, gee, since your moral compass of suffering is so finely tuned and powerful, it shouldn't require too much of an effort on your part to answer the question put forth. Namely, in the case of this elderly man facing deportation, whose suffering ought to be relieved?
Originally posted by LemonJelloI don't fear death, and think that means there must a God out there to save me from the dark end. My fear of death has very little to do with my belief in a Creator. Just looking around the universe we live in makes me think there must be some type of intelligence behind the whole thing. Random chance as to why we are here seems way crazier than the belief in a God.
I believe you missed my point. My disgust was not aimed at your fear of death per se, but rather at the way you let it "push you around" into endorsing obviously terrible lines of reasoning. Look, I am not blaming you for fearing death. I think when confronted with the fear of death, there are certain practices we can adopt to pacify, such as Dh ...[text shortened]... t me everlasting life." These types of arguments don't deserve to be taken seriously.
I'm not a Christian. I'm not anything, but a person that believes in God what ever that might be. When I weigh the belief of a God or Creator against the non Belief in any type of intelligence behind it all, I always come up a believer in God. When I say God I mean pure intelligence or creativity behind creation.
Originally posted by buckkyWhen you refer to 'God', it is not the christian god you have in mind, but any god?
I don't fear death, and think that means there must a God out there to save me from the dark end. My fear of death has very little to do with my belief in a Creator. Just looking around the universe we live in makes me think there must be some type of intelligence behind the whole thing. Random chance as to why we are here seems way crazier than the belief in ...[text shortened]... up a believer in God. When I say God I mean pure intelligence or creativity behind creation.
Originally posted by buckkyOk, then maybe I was reading too much into your posts. Sorry if that is the case.
I don't fear death, and think that means there must a God out there to save me from the dark end. My fear of death has very little to do with my belief in a Creator. Just looking around the universe we live in makes me think there must be some type of intelligence behind the whole thing. Random chance as to why we are here seems way crazier than the belief in ...[text shortened]... up a believer in God. When I say God I mean pure intelligence or creativity behind creation.
Random chance as to why we are here seems way crazier than the belief in a God.
Well, no one I know believes that "random chance" is the totality of the story of why we are here. For instance, many would claim that chance plays a role (in abiogenesis or later mutations, for example), but no one I know think the diversity of life came about by pure chance. For instance, natural selection isn't pure chance. So, this observation of yours really has nothing to do with whether or not we should endorse theism. Maybe you should educate yourself on prevailing views that differ from yours so that you don't just put straw men out there?
but a person that believes in God what ever that might be....When I say God I mean pure intelligence or creativity behind creation.
Whatever...I think it's kinda silly that you profess to believe in 'God' when you cannot put a non-ersatz concept to the term. I mean, in one thread you're putting it out there that God may well just be "pure atoms" (whatever that means). In other threads, you talk about God as an agent. Now you say God is just pure intelligence or creativity. I mean, if you cannot put some meaningful, consistent concept to 'God', then what are you even asserting when you claim that "God exists"? Maybe you're just sort of cluttering up the world unnecessarily with all this 'God' talk of yours? Maybe you are not even saying anything that we can break down into meaningful propositions for consideration?
Anyway, doesn't 'creation' already imply intelligence/creativity in a sort of trivial way? Regardless, it sounds like you need to justify your assumption that the universe was created in the first place. So, beyond your settling on some meaningful concept of 'God', whether or not someone like myself takes you seriously still comes down to what argument (I assume of some teleological variety) you can provide.
Originally posted by LemonJelloSo you thinkI must have a formalized belief in a standard religious concept or not mention my belief in God ? I can't find a religion that appeals to me. After a while it all falls apart and I'm out the door. I don't know why it bothers you soo much that I believe in a God concept, but yet I have no doctrine. Sorry but I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
Ok, then maybe I was reading too much into your posts. Sorry if that is the case.
[b]Random chance as to why we are here seems way crazier than the belief in a God.
Well, no one I know believes that "random chance" is the totality of the story of why we are here. For instance, many would claim that chance plays a role (in abiogenesis or later ...[text shortened]... to what argument (I assume of some teleological variety) you can provide.[/b]
6 edits
Originally posted by buckkySo you thinkI must have a formalized belief in a standard religious concept or not mention my belief in God ?
So you thinkI must have a formalized belief in a standard religious concept or not mention my belief in God ? I can't find a religion that appeals to me. After a while it all falls apart and I'm out the door. I don't know why it bothers you soo much that I believe in a God concept, but yet I have no doctrine. Sorry but I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
No. And I find it bizarre that you would ask that, given that nothing I have said here even remotely implicates such a thing.
I can't find a religion that appeals to me.
That's just as well. The good news is that you don't need "religion" in order to imbue your life with meaning and real content. You don't need immortality either. This, after all, seemed to be your concern earlier.
I don't know why it bothers you soo much that I believe in a God concept, but yet I have no doctrine.
I'm sorry, but you don't seem to be following the discussion well. Or maybe I am not making myself clear. I really couldn't care less whether or not you believe in a God concept. My points there go toward the facts that (1) you don't seem to be any good at expressing just what constitutes your God concept; (2) I am not convinced you have articulated any God concept that is meaningful; and, even meeting these, (3) you've offered no evidential considerations for your God concept.
It seems maybe you are just sort of probing the waters, which is certainly fair enough. The main reasons I initially jumped in the discussion is because (1) you seemed very confused on meaning and value in life -- in particular, you seemed to think that without immortality, we cannot imbue our lives with meaning and value and (2) I thought you were trying to advance an argument based on appeals to consequences (and on this last point, again sorry if I read too much into your comments).
Originally posted by buckkyIt wouldn't bother me if you are merely seeking the truth and will consider the evidence in your search.
I don't know why it bothers you soo much that I believe in a God concept, but yet I have no doctrine. Sorry but I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
If however you are merely seeking the most satisfying delusion, then it bothers me as such behavior leads to many undesirable side effects including but hardly limited to:
1. A tendency to try to get others to join the delusion often by violent or deceptive means (indoctrination of children, war, introducing lies in the science classroom etc)
2. A tendency to be more lenient on anyone else professing a delusion.
3. A waste of resources on the delusion.
Originally posted by twhiteheadDo you have a paranoid problem ?Indoctrination of children ? War ? You have really taken what I had to say and run with it. You might make a good fantasy writer. Keep up the good work.
It wouldn't bother me if you are merely seeking the truth and will consider the evidence in your search.
If however you are merely seeking the most satisfying delusion, then it bothers me as such behavior leads to many undesirable side effects including but hardly limited to:
1. A tendency to try to get others to join the delusion often by violent or de ...[text shortened]... be more lenient on anyone else professing a delusion.
3. A waste of resources on the delusion.
Originally posted by LemonJelloNo, the point is not missed and yes, the example is completely relevant to the point.
Yet again, you miss the point. The point you are trying to make with your example is not even relevant, for I can fully concede the point to you that ethics on the whole is not something that can be reduced to simple deliberations based on simple codification. Yes, there are any number of instances in which moral matters and our deliberations on them ar ...[text shortened]... e would have been better off if fewer persons had suffered and died during the Holocaust?
This is one of the aspects to which I referred when protesting to the lack of any objective standard by which to compare/contrast suffering. Philosophically speaking, pain tangibly represents an intangible trespass or violation. Without some standard of measure, some starting point, the problem of suffering as an issue is moot.
In your so-called brain-dead standards, you assume any number of falsities which (again) render your examples ineffective. I will gladly respond to your queries once you submit to mine. Who's suffering ought to be relieved in the example I have provided?
Originally posted by buckkyDid I accuse you of any of those things? I was simply explaining some of the reasons I have for objecting to anyone deluding themselves with a 'God concept' solely for the purposes of self gratification.
Do you have a paranoid problem ?Indoctrination of children ? War ? You have really taken what I had to say and run with it. You might make a good fantasy writer. Keep up the good work.
So tell me, will you pass your beliefs on to your children?
Will you support a war on religious grounds?
Just curious.
Originally posted by buckkyIn other words, you believe that which you would prefer to be true.
I find it hard to believe that everything is a meaningless mass of matter, and gas, and with no intelligence setting the ball in motion. The angry God sitiing on a throne idea is a crazy one also, but something with great intelligence, and power is responsible for the universe in my opinion. The athiest viewpoint is to depressing ,and cold to hold any charm for me.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou must be a very blunted individual. I'm just a curious person trying to figure it all out. That might mean I want to know about a possible God if it's out there. You seem to feel true anger over someone not believeing as you do. That is where the wars, and all other forms of aggression seem to spring from. See it my way or I'll blow you up. You seem to have the same kind of fanatic mind set that the hard core Christian have. I'm not a religious nut. I have no religion so how am I going go to war over my vague belief in God ?Yes I will raise my children to be curious about the nature of things, and not be afraid of looking upwards, and wondering if there might be something bigger than themself responsible for the universe. I know the kids would probably be taken away from me after such a cruel and savage instruction, but what am I going to do ?
Did I accuse you of any of those things? I was simply explaining some of the reasons I have for objecting to anyone deluding themselves with a 'God concept' solely for the purposes of self gratification.
So tell me, will you pass your beliefs on to your children?
Will you support a war on religious grounds?
Just curious.