Americans' Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines

Originally posted by PatNovak
A Harris poll indicates that Americans' belief in god, miracles and heaven is on the decline:

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/ctl/ReadCustom pct.20Default/mid/1508/ArticleId/1353/Default.aspx

"New York, N.Y. - December 16, 2013 - A new Harris Poll finds that while a strong majority (74 percent) of U.S. adults do believe ...[text shortened]... or 2030's who will be over 50 pct. religiously nonaffiliated and under 50 pct. believing in god.

In my posts, I often speak of my relationship with God and the works I'm involved in. I am not afraid to share. But even here, in this forum, does anyone want to really here about them. Based on the responces, no. The reality of a personal God, who cherishes His children (every human being) is limited by our boxes we place God in, and what we are willing to hear.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
In my posts, I often speak of my relationship with God and the works I'm involved in. I am not afraid to share. But even here, in this forum, does anyone want to really here about them. Based on the responces, no. The reality of a personal God, who cherishes His children (every human being) is limited by our boxes we place God in, and what we are willing to hear.

Obviously part of the reason for the silence to some of your comments is that people are still mulling over in their mind how much they can believe or otherwise, regarding your experiences with God, Christ and demons etc. It is not every day that someone comes along and speaks like you do Pudgenik. So maybe you have to be patient and/or provide proof for what you say, if that is at all practical. Its like in the time of the Apostles many only believed when they saw what Paul and others were capable of doing which was out of the ordinary.

For me, what you say is far more in line with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, compared to the doctrine I see tossed around here by the so-called Christian community. So in terms of credibility you have established yourself as a true teacher of the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles [in my opinion].

Originally posted by JS357
Big government and religion are natural antagonists to the extent that either seeks to control people's lives. Therefore, each will seek to discredit the other.

This is unless one of them vanquishes the other. In that case, the winner may incorporate the loser into its control systems.

So it is a relatively healthy state of affairs for individual freedo ...[text shortened]... ews/nation/2013/08/23/nixon-billy-graham-stand-united-in-phone-call/2691749/

[/pontification]

Israeli prime minister Golda Meir credited Nixon with having saved Israel in 1973 by ordering a massive airlift of arms to Israel, while war still raged. Nixon not only responded to Israel's pleas for new arms, at a time the Soviets were busy rearming Egypt and Syria, he did so over the foot-dragging of the Pentagon and State Department. He specifically ordered Kissinger and Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger to expedite the transfer of supplies to Israel. At one point, he asked for an assessment of Israel's military needs. When Schlesinger provided him with it, he told his shocked Secretary of Defense to double it.

In particular, Nixon overruled Kissinger on the airlift. The latter hoped that a more vulnerable Israel would be more compliant with his grand diplomatic designs to both bring peace to the Middle East and freeze the Soviets out of the action.

The contrast between Nixon's evident anti-Semitism and ongoing stream of ugly statements and his rescue of Israel and employment of many Jews has long puzzled commentators.

http://www.torah.org/features/firstperson/Nixon-Kissinger.html

Originally posted by Pudgenik
In my posts, I often speak of my relationship with God and the works I'm involved in. I am not afraid to share. But even here, in this forum, does anyone want to really here about them. Based on the responces, no. The reality of a personal God, who cherishes His children (every human being) is limited by our boxes we place God in, and what we are willing to hear.

If I experienced some extraordinary event (for example, god spoke to me and wanted me to tell the world something), my first reaction would not be to tell the world what he told me. My first reaction would be to figure out a way to prove he is who he says he is, and also prove that he spoke to me. I would do this for at least a couple of reasons. First, I would consider it unreasonable to expect others to believe such an extraordinary claim without some good evidence to back it up. Second, I would also want to prove to it to myself, to make sure I wasn’t fooling myself or falling victim to one of my cognitive biases. Only after I had sufficient proof would I tell the world what god told me. If I couldn't come up with sufficient proof, I probably wouldn't tell the world what he told me (and I might be a little displeased with god for putting me in such a situation, because it would probably be near impossible for me to provide sufficient proof, but would be a trivial matter for god to provide such proof).

It is not that others on the site do not want to hear about your relationship with god. I would love to hear about it, but only if I was first provided sufficient evidence that a) your specific god exists, and b) that you in fact do have a personal relationship with him (and because the claim is so extraordinary, the proof should be pretty definitive). Until these two things have been established (and probably only god can actually establish these things, and has thus far apparently chosen not to do so), it is unreasonable for you to expect others to put much stock in your posts about your relationship with god (and if god has indeed put you in this situation, you have cause to be a little displeased with him).

Originally posted by PatNovak
If I experienced some extraordinary event (for example, god spoke to me and wanted me to tell the world something), my first reaction would not be to tell the world what he told me. My first reaction would be to figure out a way to prove he is who he says he is, and also prove that he spoke to me. I would do this for at least a couple of reasons. First, I w ...[text shortened]... if god has indeed put you in this situation, you have cause to be a little displeased with him).

Well put.

Originally posted by PatNovak
If I experienced some extraordinary event (for example, god spoke to me and wanted me to tell the world something), my first reaction would not be to tell the world what he told me. My first reaction would be to figure out a way to prove he is who he says he is, and also prove that he spoke to me. I would do this for at least a couple of reasons. First, I w ...[text shortened]... if god has indeed put you in this situation, you have cause to be a little displeased with him).

True enough.

It has been on my mind of what you might accept verses something way out there. But first, my relationship with God.

I never heard of anyone having this type of relationship either. I had been in the Seminary about 7 years total, when i had an experience i could not deny.
Christmas, 1979, driving home from college. About an 8 hr. drive. A voice spoke to me. Personally i thought i was hearing things. He spoke to me just as if you and i were having a conversation. He stated, "Oh, you don't think it is me?!!". He said i should slow down as there was a cop ahead. I still thought i was hearing things, but as i was speeding, i slowed down. Sure enough, there was a cop around the next bend. The voice went on like that a few more times, of road conditions (pot holes and cops). Finally i said, who is this? He said he was the Lord.
Now this alone might not sound like much evidence, But this conversation lasted all night. During the next two weeks, i felt God was with me.
The town i grew up in did not have beggers that i was aware of. Yet i met a lady begging for money. I gave her all i had. Personally i needed $35 to get back to Iowa. During the two weeks home i helped some neighbors who sold firewood and gave the money to the missions. I never told anyone what i needed, yet they paid me $35 for my help.

Over the next 4 yrs i experienced a multitude of "divine moments" and confirmations. The Lord told me the most important thing i had to learn was to recognize His peace in my heart.

I know exactly what you are talking about when you say fooling myself or falling victim to one of my cognitive biases. I took great care to avoid pride at all costs. I recognize that i'm a fool in this world. I recognize that i am stupid and do stupid things. But when i asked God "why me", i mean seriously, what am i. I'm a sinner, and definitely not a holy roller. His responce was simply, "I trust you".

There is a story you can research. I was in Ohio some years ago, near the Ky. line, going northbound. I asked the Father, "you know, i'ld really like to go to a regular service". (it was past 9 am Sunday morning) His response was, go to North Baltimore, Oh. (I'm a truck driver) "What, that is three hours away, there won't be any services when i get there." He repeated, "North Baltimore, Oh." i said, "whatever, your the boss".
Let me mention here. I was at the rest area, slept the night there. I-75, mile marker 29. When i was getting dressed, the Lord told me to wear dress shorts under my pants. I had no idea why. It was in Nov. that all this took place.
I arrived at the Petro Truck Stop, but instead of going to the chapel, went into the main building. It was 12:10 pm. An angel grabbed my arm and told me to hurry.
I went to the chapel. The tail end of a service was taking place. They were doing prayer requests.
The first i heard, a lady that had problems with her legs. Immediately i saw a tumor in her brain affecting her legs. Raising my hand, i told them to pray for the tumor.
The preacher quieted everyone down, then continued. The last request, a man was praying for his son. Suddenly, i had a vision, i saw this man giving his son a necklace. It had the running man with a hatchet.
I turned to the man, and told him, "two weeks ago you gave your son this necklace. (describing it to him) I told him it has a demon attached to it. I then told him that God had heard his prayers, that Mike, who did not believe in God said, "if you are really there, help me God". I told Mike, that God had shown me him crying and praying after he had gotten off the phone with his wife.
Mike wanted to be baptized NOW.
I figured my work was done, so i started heading into the main building. Mike stopped me, "please, i want you to be there too".
The last time i was at a protestant baptism (15+ yrs ago) they used a bathtub.
The preacher found a place to do the baptism. A swimming pool. "ok, Lord, now i know what the shorts are for, ha, ha."
Mike Mayberry lives in Bloomington, Il. The preachers name is John and works at the Petro in North Baltimore, Ohio.

versus

Originally posted by wolfgang59
versus

I'm sure you can find many spelling errors. At least I'm trying. Trying to find the correct spelling, and trying to drive you crazier than you already are, Wolfie.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
I'm sure you can find many spelling errors. At least I'm trying. Trying to find the correct spelling, and trying to drive you crazier than you already are, Wolfie.

It was just a quiet correction. No malevolence.
I assumed it was verses (ie bible verses) at first and was trying to make sense of it.

Originally posted by PatNovak
I am unclear about how god and mankind differ in terms of allowing free will and controlling people. Both seek a level of control of a person's actions through rewards and punishments, and both give a limited form of free will with a dose of coercion - obey and you will be fine, disobey and your will go to jail/hell. The main difference seems to be the leve ...[text shortened]... he tried giving people both heaven and free will (Adam and Eve), it apparently didn't work out.

You don't even believe in God and you say he is coercive?

Interesting.

Originally posted by whodey
You don't even believe in God and you say he is coercive?

Interesting.

You stated that "God gave us free will and it is only man who wishes to take it away." I argued that both god and mankind place similar limitations on free will, and also argued that god would have to take away free will in heaven. Since you addressed neither of these points, and focused on an issue outside the scope of our particular debate (the existence of god), I will assume you don't have a counter argument to either of my points. It is impossible to debate this topic (which you brought up, I might add) without accepting the premise that god exists for the purposes of the debate.

Originally posted by PatNovak
You stated that "God gave us free will and it is only man who wishes to take it away." I argued that both god and mankind place similar limitations on free will, and also argued that god would have to take away free will in heaven. Since you addressed neither of these points, and focused on an issue outside the scope of our particular debate (the existence ...[text shortened]... t up, I might add) without accepting the premise that god exists for the purposes of the debate.

You are correct, Pat, in this statement. "That both god and mankind place similar limitations on free will. This is exactly what the laws of Moses are all about. With in the laws, God tells Moses that He will also abide by these same laws. Later in scripture, we see again, God/Jesus telling Peter. What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. The Laws of Moses were of the covenant with God. With Jesus the reaffermation of God's Covenant with mankind.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
It was just a quiet correction. No malevolence.
I assumed it was verses (ie bible verses) at first and was trying to make sense of it.

Sorry, didn't mean to be so touchy. Verses, meaning one thing verses another.

I just wanted to add a little more to the long post i typed earlier. I've known Mike and his family for a few years now. Mike joined the Assembly of God church, i think it is in Bloomington, Il. as well. The following Easter, his wife became a Christian, and eventually all the children. His house is like a neighborhood maginet. Childrens friends, neighbors, honestly, i've been there and seen it.
When i think of Mike, it reminds me of throwing a stone into a pond, and watching the rings go off into infinity.
I told a priest friend of mine of Mike. He asked me why i didn't show him the catholic church. I told him, my job is to share about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. If God wants them to be catholic, well that is up to God.