1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    02 Aug '16 14:41
    When we get to heaven we will be(come) eternal. (according to Christian doctrine)

    If this is so then we must already be eternal.. it's the nature of eternity.

    But if no one can remember before their birth,(when they were still eternal), then surely amnesia is the only possible explanation.
    This would fit in with the spiritual concept of "Waking up"
  2. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    02 Aug '16 14:55
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    When we get to heaven we will be(come) eternal. (according to Christian doctrine)

    If this is so then we must already be eternal.. it's the nature of eternity.

    But if no one can remember before their birth,(when they were still eternal), then surely amnesia is the only possible explanation.
    This would fit in with the spiritual concept of "Waking up"
    Interesting thought. How can eternal happiness be consistent with having sad or even just bittersweet memories?
  3. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    02 Aug '16 15:15
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    But if no one can remember before their birth,(when they were still eternal), then surely amnesia is the only possible explanation.
    No, it isn't. Unconsciousness and thus no memories is another possibility. And yet another is the possibility that they don't actually mean 'eternal' as in 'always existed'.

    Did you sleep last night? Do you remember every minute of it? Do you have amnesia with regards to your sleeping hours?
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    02 Aug '16 15:52
    Originally posted by JS357
    Interesting thought. How can eternal happiness be consistent with having sad or even just bittersweet memories?
    I'm not sure about eternal happiness.
    I guess it's the nature of the beast to not know what lies beyond (if anything) .
    However if experiencing eternity is real then huge relief would be one of the most relevant feelings one might experience.
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    02 Aug '16 15:58
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, it isn't. Unconsciousness and thus no memories is another possibility. And yet another is the possibility that they don't actually mean 'eternal' as in 'always existed'.

    Did you sleep last night? Do you remember every minute of it? Do you have amnesia with regards to your sleeping hours?
    How can unconciousness preceed eternity?

    If we can get to an eternal destination , then surely we have always been there.

    And the only sense I can understand 'eternal ' is having 'always existed'.
  6. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    02 Aug '16 19:34
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    How can unconciousness preceed eternity?
    Why not?

    If we can get to an eternal destination , then surely we have always been there.
    It doesn't follow.

    And the only sense I can understand 'eternal ' is having 'always existed'.
    Well that is your inability to understand and you shouldn't push that on to other people and insist that they mean what you want them to not what they actually mean.
    I am pretty sure that the vast majority of theists who talk of an eternal afterlife also believe they began at birth or conception.
  7. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52615
    02 Aug '16 21:011 edit
    Without memories it is not you reborn it is a newborn person with no knowledge of anything.

    Which would negate the idea of heaven for mankind. If you don't remember anything you don't know where you came from so you would be disconnected from your previous world.

    Which pretty much negates the entire heaven concept.

    It's a stupid wishful thinking concept that just gives people that warm fuzzy feeling at the end of their lives.

    I guess a lot of people need that warm fuzzy feeling to SURVIVE to the end of their lives.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    02 Aug '16 23:343 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Why not?

    [b]If we can get to an eternal destination , then surely we have always been there.

    It doesn't follow.

    And the only sense I can understand 'eternal ' is having 'always existed'.
    Well that is your inability to understand and you shouldn't push that on to other people and insist that they mean what you want them to not what they ...[text shortened]... rity of theists who talk of an eternal afterlife also believe they began at birth or conception.[/b]
    Not putting anything on anyone.

    Man are you hard boiled, then again after my trip to debates I can see why. People bickering, seeing who has the best insults,etc.
    Information is poo-pooed, there is no sign of anyone actually wanting to work things out or make things better.

    I'm sure you know that I am not "vast majority of theists", and the way you ark up at a so-called alternative way of viewing eternity is certainly not in the spirit of my op.

    To begin at nothing, to then possibly go on living forever (as we understand it physically,I presume), doesn't seem right to me.

    This ,(that we are asleep to our real nature), is an idea I have tossed around myself and, because it has stood the test of time I thought I might put it here for maybe some further insight...or not.

    Concepts like 'Mind",ie the mind of 'god' , or interdimensionalism are more than new age musings.

    They may turn out to be new age musings, but how do you know?
    I suggest that the nature of ourselves may shed some light on the actual answer. After all I know of no one who knows what they are.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    02 Aug '16 23:47
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Without memories it is not you reborn it is a newborn person with no knowledge of anything.

    Which would negate the idea of heaven for mankind. If you don't remember anything you don't know where you came from so you would be disconnected from your previous world.

    Which pretty much negates the entire heaven concept.

    It's a stupid wishful thinking ...[text shortened]... s.

    I guess a lot of people need that warm fuzzy feeling to SURVIVE to the end of their lives.
    I have thought about this.

    Guess I was lucky to start pondering these things when I was 20.

    "Without memories it is not you reborn it is a newborn person with no knowledge of anything."
    I don't quite get your post here, but this is exactly the point. The person you are, whoever that is, is an imposter (in my musings) , so I think understanding universal principles may lead one back "godhead". Things like mathematics and the sanctity of all life.

    No moral absolutes here. No hard defined edges. And yet there is something there ... well for me anyway.

    As a Hindu these ideas are not all that wacky at all, on the contrary, they are just my interpretation of the information that has been presented to me in this life. Yes, all information.
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    02 Aug '16 23:52
    Some have noted that it would be good to get other religious points of view here, however one can quickly see that it really is not worth putting yourself out there on this forum.

    There was of course Dasa, who was disturbing. Then there was Rvsakhadeo who was a Hindu. I do believe he got jack of trying to communicate ideas here.
    And I am positive that Taoman was disillusioned by the lack of open-mindedness in this forum.
  11. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    03 Aug '16 08:44
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Not putting anything on anyone.
    You clearly were. You were saying that because 'eternal' means only one thing to you then anyone who uses it must mean what you want it to mean even though it is obvious that is not what they mean.

    I'm sure you know that I am not "vast majority of theists",
    But the OP isn't about you. The OP clearly says 'according to Christian doctrine'.

    To begin at nothing, to then possibly go on living forever (as we understand it physically,I presume), doesn't seem right to me.
    But you haven't given any argument for that. You just have an intuition. That is all well and good, but you must realise that it is only intuition and not the only possibility.

    They may turn out to be new age musings, but how do you know?
    Because they don't make sense?

    After all I know of no one who knows what they are.
    You know me. I know what I am.
  12. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    03 Aug '16 08:50
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Some have noted that it would be good to get other religious points of view here, however one can quickly see that it really is not worth putting yourself out there on this forum.
    If your beliefs cannot withstand honest criticism, then you need to reexamine your beliefs.

    And I am positive that Taoman was disillusioned by the lack of open-mindedness in this forum.
    By open-mindedness, do you mean a refusal to accept as true any old nonsense that someone comes up with? If not, what do you mean by it and why do you feel it is lacking?
    Have you considered the possibility that your OP was not as clear as you think?
    You appeared to be saying that Christians believe in an eternal afterlife and therefore Christians must believe that they existed before birth.
    Now you appear to be changing that to you believe that you existed before birth - or something along those lines, it is not very clear.
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
    A Spirited Misfit
    in London
    Joined
    14 Mar '15
    Moves
    8517
    03 Aug '16 11:29
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    How can unconciousness preceed eternity?

    If we can get to an eternal destination , then surely we have always been there.

    And the only sense I can understand 'eternal ' is having 'always existed'.
    'Eternal' is without end, not 'without beginning.'
  14. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    03 Aug '16 12:32
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    'Eternal' is without end, not 'without beginning.'
    Dictionaries vary. I believe it may imply 'without beginning' or not.
    It may also mean 'all time' which may have an end or a beginning or both or neither.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    03 Aug '16 21:52
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You clearly were. You were saying that because 'eternal' means only one thing to you then anyone who uses it must mean what you want it to mean even though it is obvious that is not what they mean.

    [b]I'm sure you know that I am not "vast majority of theists",

    But the OP isn't about you. The OP clearly says 'according to Christian doctrine'.

    [ ...[text shortened]... e?

    After all I know of no one who knows what they are.
    You know me. I know what I am.[/b]
    Just quickly:

    not putting anything on anyone, just giving my take on the idea of heaven, as expressed in Christian terminology.


    It is intuitive and some logic has lead me to reinforce this however it is my own logic.
    As frustrating and evasive as this may seem I don't wish anyone to follow my path, or parrot my ideas. I would be worried if anyone did.

    "Find your own salvation with diligence." the Buddha.

    I know you from your posts and would not expect any less. thnx
Back to Top