1. Joined
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    24 Jul '10 19:45
    Originally posted by josephw
    Since the beginning the sun has never failed to rise in the east and set in the west.
    a somewhat provocative but totally irrelevant statement
  2. Subscriberjosephw
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    29 Aug '10 21:06
    I've read and reread all of your posts to see if I could discover exactly why the unbeliever has such difficulty with "absolutes". Because that is what each of you has in common. You balk at the existence of absolutes. You each have that in common.

    The mere mention of the existence of "absolutes" sends you into a frenzy. It's fear. You fear the truth.

    I simply inferred that it is an absolute that the sun has never failed to rise in the east and set in the west since the beginning, and it generated a backlash of insults and injuries. You folks have gotta be afraid of something!


    See if you can grapple with this; It is an absolute truth that you and I are polarised in our thinking about the nature of existence. You cannot even be sure you exist, since that would infer an absolute, while I am absolutely sure I exist.
  3. Joined
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    29 Aug '10 21:29
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've read and reread all of your posts to see if I could discover exactly why the unbeliever has such difficulty with "absolutes". Because that is what each of you has in common. You balk at the existence of absolutes. You each have that in common.

    The mere mention of the existence of "absolutes" sends you into a frenzy. It's fear. You fear the truth.

    ...[text shortened]... be sure you exist, since that would infer an absolute, while I am absolutely sure I exist.
    Here are some possible absolutes:

    By "unbeliever" you are referring generically to anyone with different beliefs to yourself

    Not everyone in this thread other than you is an "unbeliever"

    You are not going to reply to each post in this thread (as previously stated)

    I have no idea why the sun always rising in the east and setting in the west is such a big deal for you

    🙂
  4. Subscriberjosephw
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    29 Aug '10 21:41
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Here are some possible absolutes:

    By "unbeliever" you are referring generically to anyone with different beliefs to yourself

    Not everyone in this thread other than you is an "unbeliever"

    You are not going to reply to each post in this thread (as previously stated)

    I have no idea why the sun always rising in the east and setting in the west is such a big deal for you

    🙂
    By "unbeliever" you are referring generically to anyone with different beliefs to yourself

    Yes. Any one who denies that Jesus is Lord is an unbeliever.

    Not everyone in this thread other than you is an "unbeliever"

    If any one posting in this thread denies any of the essential truths as laid out in the scriptures that establishes one as a "believer", that one is an unbeliever.

    You are not going to reply to each post in this thread (as previously stated)

    I did, but perhaps not in the way you thought I should.

    I have no idea why the sun always rising in the east and setting in the west is such a big deal for you

    It's not. The "big deal" is the display of the fear of the truth.
  5. Donationbbarr
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    29 Aug '10 22:06
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've read and reread all of your posts to see if I could discover exactly why the unbeliever has such difficulty with "absolutes". Because that is what each of you has in common. You balk at the existence of absolutes. You each have that in common.

    The mere mention of the existence of "absolutes" sends you into a frenzy. It's fear. You fear the truth.

    ...[text shortened]... be sure you exist, since that would infer an absolute, while I am absolutely sure I exist.
    Don't be silly. I love absolutes. Here is one:

    ~(P&~P).

    That says that no proposition can be both true and false. Now that is an absolute. The problem with your example is it is not an absolute, it's just a regularity. We can imagine the sun burning out, or exploding, or whatever. Hell, some scientists say that's only a few billion years away. So it's not an absolute, it is just a truth that is really, really reliable (until its not). But 2+2=4? There is an absolute you can bet the house on. That ain't ever gonna change.

    So we're not afraid, really. We just don't think you know what you're talking about.
  6. Subscriberjosephw
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    29 Aug '10 22:20
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Don't be silly. I love absolutes. Here is one:

    ~(P&~P).

    That says that no proposition can be both true and false. Now that is an absolute. The problem with your example is it is not an absolute, it's just a regularity. We can imagine the sun burning out, or exploding, or whatever. Hell, some scientists say that's only a few billion years aw ...[text shortened]...

    So we're not afraid, really. We just don't think you know what you're talking about.
    If I don't know what I'm talking about then why does every one disagree with me when I say there are absolutes?

    I'm glad you cleared it up though.
  7. Donationbbarr
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    29 Aug '10 22:34
    Originally posted by josephw
    If I don't know what I'm talking about then why does every one disagree with me when I say there are absolutes?

    I'm glad you cleared it up though.
    Here are a few possibilities:

    1) People think you are using the term 'absolute' incorrectly.
    2) People think you are calling certain truths 'absolute' when they in fact are not.
    3) People think you are claiming that your religious beliefs are absolute truths, even though you haven't given any arguments for them.
    4) People think you use the notion of 'absolute truth' to simply dismiss the arguments of others, rather than responding to the substance of their objections to your view.
  8. Subscriberjosephw
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    29 Aug '10 22:511 edit
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Here are a few possibilities:

    1) People think you are using the term 'absolute' incorrectly.
    2) People think you are calling certain truths 'absolute' when they in fact are not.
    3) People think you are claiming that your religious beliefs are absolute truths, even though you haven't given any arguments for them.
    4) People think you use the notion of 'abs ents of others, rather than responding to the substance of their objections to your view.
    1) People think you are using the term 'absolute' incorrectly.
    2) People think you are calling certain truths 'absolute' when they in fact are not.
    3) People think you are claiming that your religious beliefs are absolute truths, even though you haven't given any arguments for them.
    4) People think you use the notion of 'abs ...[text shortened]... ents of others, rather than responding to the substance of their objections to your view.



    I'll keep this list for future reference.


    By the way. Do you have any idea what percentage of the human race has idea what they're talking about?

    And do you know how many of those that do know what they're talking about are even heard?

    If I make the statement that "there is a God", but most people say I don't know what I'm talking about, then who's right? Am I wrong because everyone says so? Are they right because they're in the majority?
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    30 Aug '10 04:121 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    If I make the statement that "there is a God",
    The statement that "there is a God" is a religious truth. Nothing more.
    It's definitely not an absolute truth, because if it was, noone could disagree with you.
    It's a relative truth at its most. Relative the opinion of he who says it.
  10. London
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    09 Sep '10 14:25
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Don't be silly. I love absolutes. Here is one:

    ~(P&~P).
    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

    :-)
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    09 Sep '10 14:33
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

    :-)
    now say it with a beard
  12. London
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    09 Sep '10 15:02
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    now say it with a beard
    (in a high-pitched voice) Ridiculous that is, young Skywalker!
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    14 Sep '10 22:35
    Originally posted by josephw
    I've read and reread all of your posts to see if I could discover exactly why the unbeliever has such difficulty with "absolutes". Because that is what each of you has in common. You balk at the existence of absolutes. You each have that in common.

    The mere mention of the existence of "absolutes" sends you into a frenzy. It's fear. You fear the truth.

    ...[text shortened]... be sure you exist, since that would infer an absolute, while I am absolutely sure I exist.
    Would you be willing to grant your interlocutors "absolution"?
  14. Joined
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    14 Sep '10 22:512 edits
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Don't be silly. I love absolutes. Here is one:

    ~(P&~P).

    That says that no proposition can be both true and false. Now that is an absolute. The problem with your example is it is not an absolute, it's just a regularity. We can imagine the sun burning out, or exploding, or whatever. Hell, some scientists say that's only a few billion years aw

    So we're not afraid, really. We just don't think you know what you're talking about.
    Dialetheists say that, for some P, (P&~P). But what if P is "Dialetheism is true"? I guess they have other Ps in mind.

    Suppose P is "I am standing in the kitchen". I stand with one foot in the kitchen and one foot outside. So, it's not completely true that I am either standing in, or not standing in, the kitchen: both claims are half true. So, it's perhaps half true that (P&~P), given that both P and ~P are themselves half true, and only half true that ~(P&~P).

    But that makes ~(P&~P) less that absolutely true, doesn't it? Is it only absolutely true that ~(P&~P) can never be less than half true?
  15. Joined
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    15 Sep '10 13:24
    Originally posted by josephw
    Since the beginning the sun has never failed to rise in the east and set in the west.
    I believe your point was missed by almost if not everyone in this thread. I myself agree with you 100%. It appears to me that people get hung up on one section without reading or looking at the big picture. I to believe as you, but I seldomly post, due to the fact no one seems to want to talk and learn from one another. They just want ot prove a point and argue. As if proving that your smarter than someone is the greatest achivement in life. I could not have imagined that one statement could or would have exclated to the level that it did. All I can say is wow, I'll even say that reverse.... wow.
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