1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    28 Nov '14 19:00
    An Alternative to Manmade Elixirs

    "Miraculous, magical, and maybe a little mysterious, an elixir is a sweet substance or solution that cures the problem at hand. Elixir is a word often used with a knowing wink — a sort of overstatement of a product's effectiveness, or a decision maker's policy. With linguistic roots in the long-ago alchemists' search for the philosophers' stone, the word has an element of fantasy to spice up anything, like a remedy for the common cold. The mythic fountain of youth is certainly an elixir, but it can also refer to a real liquid, concept, or plan." http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/elixir Please see John 4: 1-42:

    Jesus Goes to Galilee: John 4:1-42 "1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), 3 He left Judea and went away again into Galilee. 4 And He had to pass through Samaria. 5 So He came to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph; 6 and Jacob’s well was there. So Jesus, being wearied from His journey, was sitting thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

    The Woman of Samaria: 7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9 Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “* Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

    15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw.” 16 He said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” 17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.” 19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

    27 At this point His disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why do You speak with her?” 28 So the woman left her water pot, and went into the city and said to the men, 29 “Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?” 30 They went out of the city, and were coming to Him.

    31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32 But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. 35 Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. 36 Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this case the saying is true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor.”

    The Samaritans: 39 From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.” (New American Standard Bible)

    John 3:16-21 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten [uniquely born] Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (New American Standard Bible)

    Question: Will you consider the drink Jesus describes in *John 4:13-14 "Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” as an alternative to manmade elixirs?
  2. Cape Town
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    28 Nov '14 19:11
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Question: Will you consider the drink Jesus describes in *John 4:13-14 "Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” as an alternative to manmade elixirs?
    No, I will not, for the simple reason that I do not think either you or Jesus' claims about the drinks effects are real. The thing about such offers is that the vast majority of people have already accepted the drink, or think its no better than an alchemists elixir. You will not find too many people that believe your claims but have chosen not to drink.
  3. Standard memberHandyAndy
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    28 Nov '14 19:41
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Question: Will you consider the drink Jesus describes in *John 4:13-14 "Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” as an alternative to manmade elixirs?
    Drinking the Kool-Aid?
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Nov '14 23:09
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]Question: Will you consider the drink Jesus describes in *John 4:13-14 "Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” as an alternative to manmade elixirs?[/b]
    Interest in what these quotations happen say depends on one believing the claims you make about the divinity of Jesus and about eternal life. The words have no significance to anyone except those with Christians beliefs.
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    29 Nov '14 01:21
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, I will not, for the simple reason that I do not think either you or Jesus' claims about the drinks effects are real. The thing about such offers is that the vast majority of people have already accepted the drink, or think its no better than an alchemists elixir. You will not find too many people that believe your claims but have chosen not to drink.
    The effect is real.

    "You will not find too many people that believe your claims but have chosen not to drink."

    Of course! I sure don't see the world flocking to Jesus.

    Matthew 7:13,14
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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    29 Nov '14 01:29
    Originally posted by FMF
    The words have no significance to anyone except those with Christians beliefs.
    They do have significance whether one accepts the words or not, but when believed and applied the words of God are life to the believer.

    The choice is up to the hearer.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    29 Nov '14 01:311 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    They do have significance whether one accepts the words or not, but when believed and applied the words of God are life to the believer.

    The choice is up to the hearer.
    A hearer cannot "choose" to believe something if they find it unbelievable.
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    29 Nov '14 01:38
    Originally posted by FMF
    A hearer cannot "choose" to believe it if they find it unbelievable.
    Then the hearer chooses not to believe.
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    29 Nov '14 01:41
    Originally posted by josephw
    Then the hearer chooses not to believe.
    Not so. Not if the hearer does believe; he can't choose not to believe it. But if the proposition or assertion is found to be far-fetched and unbelievable, the hearer cannot choose to believe that it's true.
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    29 Nov '14 02:00
    Originally posted by FMF
    Not so. Not if the hearer does believe; he can't choose not to believe it. But if the proposition or assertion is found to be far-fetched and unbelievable, the hearer cannot choose to believe that it's true.
    Your opinion. That's all it is. As long as it contradicts what Jesus said it makes sense to you.

    Luke 8:5-11
    A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
    And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
    And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
    And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
    And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
    Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

    Choose to hear.
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    29 Nov '14 02:04
    Originally posted by josephw
    Choose to hear.
    I have no trouble hearing it. We are talking about whether one is able to believe something they find unbelievable. Can you choose to believe, for real, in your real life, that Islam is based on the true revelation of God and that Christianity is not? No you can't. And you still can't even if you choose to hear someone telling that it is.
  12. Cape Town
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    29 Nov '14 07:10
    Originally posted by josephw
    The effect is real.
    I already knew that you and Bobby believe that. I already knew about Jesus' and the Bibles claims.

    Of course! I sure don't see the world flocking to Jesus.
    And that situation will remain for as long as proselytizers like you and Bobby continue to stick to an obviously flawed strategy. Bobby seems to think that spamming the thread with Bible passages (which by the way nobody bothered to read) will somehow make it more likely that people will believe him.
    You have to realize that if you genuinely believe you know the truth, and you want others to know the truth, you should try to explain to others good reasons why you believe it is the truth. Instead, all I see is theists giving reasons that they themselves would not accept. If I started a thread with voluminous quotes from the Quran, I doubt you or Bobby would read it, and even if you did, I doubt you would be more likely to believe my subsequent statements as a result.
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    29 Nov '14 12:57
    Originally posted by FMF
    I have no trouble hearing it. We are talking about whether one is able to believe something they find unbelievable. Can you choose to believe, for real, in your real life, that Islam is based on the true revelation of God and that Christianity is not? No you can't. And you still can't even if you choose to hear someone telling that it is.
    One chooses to believe that what they hear is the truth, or not. Not everything one hears is true, or false.

    Is it true that Jesus died on a cross, was buried and rose from the dead? Yes, it is true, whether one believes it or not. Believing doesn't make something true. Believing the truth makes the truth effective in the life of the believer, and so it is also with believing a lie.

    John 10:24-28
    Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

    The effect of believing the truth about Jesus when one hears His voice is eternal life. Believing not has the opposite effect.

    Hear and choose to believe the truth. There is ample evidence for the truth.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    29 Nov '14 13:10
    Originally posted by josephw
    One chooses to believe that what they hear is the truth, or not. Not everything one hears is true, or false.
    So you are able to choose to believe that Islam represents the truth if you want to?
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    29 Nov '14 14:162 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    So you are able to choose to believe that Islam represents the truth if you want to?
    So you are able to choose to believe that Islam represents the truth if you want to?


    I can choose to accept that element of truth which may be part of Islam.

    IE. There is one God.

    Okay, I will take that aspect of truth from Islam.
    I can also take it from Bahia.

    Buddhism teaches that the world is an illusion.
    I can take some truth from Buddhist belief. IE. At least that there is something beyond all that I see in the world which is a more solid truth of reality.

    I can choose to take some aspect of truth from other faiths.
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