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Originally posted by PsychoPawnEmptiness is the father (but you must be old enough to really appreciate that - and when you are, you won't need anyone to tell you, the universe will be screaming it at the top of its lungs every second.)
Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyPascal was clearly wrong. There is always something to loose when you believe in a falsehood. In fact, there is always something to loose whatever you believe (right or wrong). To pretend that there isn't is merely an attempt at comforting oneself in the face of doubt. It is however an extremely popular technique.
'There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God. If I believe
in the risen Christ and it's just a devious falsehood, there is nothing
to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain.' -Pascal (1623-1662)
Originally posted by PsychoPawnDesire is the father of faith. Nobody ever has faith in something that they do not desire to be the case. I often hear the phrase "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right", or the similar concept "I couldn't believe in a God who was ...."
Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
Originally posted by twhiteheadFaith has neither mother or father; it is a system of thinking unto itself. The examples you provide are that of wishful thinking, not of faith.
Desire is the father of faith. Nobody ever has faith in something that they do not desire to be the case. I often hear the phrase "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right", or the similar concept "I couldn't believe in a God who was ...."
The faith that the Bible speaks of carries with it no emotional sway, one way or another. A person may not particularly like the truth that he hears, or perhaps he may love it with his whole heart. Either end of the spectrum--- or any point in between--- has absolutely nothing to do with faith itself.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIn the history of God's dealing with people in the Bible quite a bit of space given to contrasting true faith with something else.
Desire is the father of faith. Nobody ever has faith in something that they do not desire to be the case. I often hear the phrase "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right", or the similar concept "I couldn't believe in a God who was ...."
We might call that something else "presumption" or even "wishful thinking".
It becomes crystal clear that everything that issued from man's heart about God was in fact not received by Him as genuine faith.
Probably the first clear case of this is Cain and Abel. And other examples follow. it becomes very clear that faith is not every kind of wishful whim from man's heart about God. And the tension between this presumption and true faith grows more and more pronounced.
Eventually you have some very religious people with something strong enough for God, apparently, that they desire to crucify the Son of God. It was related to God. But apparently it was not faith.
So your broad generalization of all manner of wishful thinking about God is faith, doesn't nearly hold in the 1600 year record of God's interaction with mankind reviewed in the Bible.
The first time I read the Bible and it really hit me that everything from religious people could not be called faith was in the book of Samuel about the ark of the covenant.
In those days the Israelites were very far in their hearts from Yahweh. And they were being troubled by the Philistines their enemies. At one point it says that they brought out the ark of the covenant to go before them into battle.
Apparently they remembered what wonderful things in the past had happened as the priest marched into Canaan behind the ark of the covenant.
I read this and notice that it says the people shouted with such a commotion that the earth split. The Bible makes sure you know that they whooped, hollered, cheered, and made a huge to do. "We have the ark now boy. We're going to whip the old Philistines now!"
And I naively thought they were too. Unfortunately the went out to battle, were sorely trounced by thier enemies the Philistines, and the ark of the covenant was captured by the enemy.
What Happened ? Oh. I thought. Maybe that wasn't real FAITH.
Maybe just having that physical object as a kind of "good luck charm" was not the faith that God desired the people to have.
It was a lesson to a young Bible reader. Not all the commotion of religious people is faith in God. Sometimes it is presumption or even an almost occult like and soulish reliance on luck. God may not honor it at all.