1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    23 Aug '09 20:07
    An Exquisite Irony



    Lion's Share of RHP Spirituality Forum posters are full of and fond of expressing serious doubts... and are very insistent about them.




    😀
  2. Joined
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    23 Aug '09 20:31
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    An Exquisite Irony



    Lion's Share of RHP Spirituality Forum posters are full of and fond of expressing serious [b]doubts
    ... and are very insistent about them.




    😀[/b]
    Doubt is the mother of faith.
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    23 Aug '09 20:51
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Doubt is the mother of faith.
    'Doubting Thomas' flexible truth seeking, honest inquiry and patient

    open minded questioning is often a precursor to belief. Rigidity isn't.
  4. Joined
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    23 Aug '09 23:10
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Doubt is the mother of faith.
    Well then who is the mother of doubt? 😛
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    23 Aug '09 23:25
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Doubt is the mother of faith.
    Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Aug '09 01:20
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
    Thats not as bad a question as it first sounds.
    (I've no idea, but I reckon there's some answer(s) )
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    24 Aug '09 02:23
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
    Emptiness is the father (but you must be old enough to really appreciate that - and when you are, you won't need anyone to tell you, the universe will be screaming it at the top of its lungs every second.)
  8. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    24 Aug '09 05:47
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
    'There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God. If I believe

    in the risen Christ and it's just a devious falsehood, there is nothing

    to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain.' -Pascal (1623-1662)
  9. Cape Town
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    24 Aug '09 06:34
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    'There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God. If I believe

    in the risen Christ and it's just a devious falsehood, there is nothing

    to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain.' -Pascal (1623-1662)
    Pascal was clearly wrong. There is always something to loose when you believe in a falsehood. In fact, there is always something to loose whatever you believe (right or wrong). To pretend that there isn't is merely an attempt at comforting oneself in the face of doubt. It is however an extremely popular technique.
  10. Cape Town
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    24 Aug '09 06:37
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Who's the father? Or was doubt a virgin?
    Desire is the father of faith. Nobody ever has faith in something that they do not desire to be the case. I often hear the phrase "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right", or the similar concept "I couldn't believe in a God who was ...."
  11. Territories Unknown
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    24 Aug '09 22:56
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Desire is the father of faith. Nobody ever has faith in something that they do not desire to be the case. I often hear the phrase "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right", or the similar concept "I couldn't believe in a God who was ...."
    Faith has neither mother or father; it is a system of thinking unto itself. The examples you provide are that of wishful thinking, not of faith.

    The faith that the Bible speaks of carries with it no emotional sway, one way or another. A person may not particularly like the truth that he hears, or perhaps he may love it with his whole heart. Either end of the spectrum--- or any point in between--- has absolutely nothing to do with faith itself.
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    25 Aug '09 00:262 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Desire is the father of faith. Nobody ever has faith in something that they do not desire to be the case. I often hear the phrase "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right", or the similar concept "I couldn't believe in a God who was ...."
    In the history of God's dealing with people in the Bible quite a bit of space given to contrasting true faith with something else.

    We might call that something else "presumption" or even "wishful thinking".

    It becomes crystal clear that everything that issued from man's heart about God was in fact not received by Him as genuine faith.

    Probably the first clear case of this is Cain and Abel. And other examples follow. it becomes very clear that faith is not every kind of wishful whim from man's heart about God. And the tension between this presumption and true faith grows more and more pronounced.

    Eventually you have some very religious people with something strong enough for God, apparently, that they desire to crucify the Son of God. It was related to God. But apparently it was not faith.

    So your broad generalization of all manner of wishful thinking about God is faith, doesn't nearly hold in the 1600 year record of God's interaction with mankind reviewed in the Bible.
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    25 Aug '09 00:362 edits
    The first time I read the Bible and it really hit me that everything from religious people could not be called faith was in the book of Samuel about the ark of the covenant.

    In those days the Israelites were very far in their hearts from Yahweh. And they were being troubled by the Philistines their enemies. At one point it says that they brought out the ark of the covenant to go before them into battle.

    Apparently they remembered what wonderful things in the past had happened as the priest marched into Canaan behind the ark of the covenant.

    I read this and notice that it says the people shouted with such a commotion that the earth split. The Bible makes sure you know that they whooped, hollered, cheered, and made a huge to do. "We have the ark now boy. We're going to whip the old Philistines now!"

    And I naively thought they were too. Unfortunately the went out to battle, were sorely trounced by thier enemies the Philistines, and the ark of the covenant was captured by the enemy.

    What Happened ? Oh. I thought. Maybe that wasn't real FAITH.

    Maybe just having that physical object as a kind of "good luck charm" was not the faith that God desired the people to have.

    It was a lesson to a young Bible reader. Not all the commotion of religious people is faith in God. Sometimes it is presumption or even an almost occult like and soulish reliance on luck. God may not honor it at all.
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