1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    05 Oct '06 03:39
    Must God exist?
  2. Standard memberDavid C
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    05 Oct '06 03:45
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Must God exist?
    Define "interesting".
  3. Melbourne, Australia
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    05 Oct '06 04:44
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Must God exist?
    No.
  4. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    05 Oct '06 05:00
    Originally posted by amannion
    No.
    But does he?
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    05 Oct '06 05:01
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Must God exist?
    Good joke -- you made me look.
  6. Melbourne, Australia
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    05 Oct '06 05:05
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    But does he?
    I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
  7. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    05 Oct '06 05:261 edit
    Originally posted by amannion
    I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
    Now we're getting to the heart of the matter.

    What I want to know is whether anybody believes that God exists out of logical necessity. That is, if you believe God exists, do you believe he does so contingently, in which case evidence has bearing on your belief, or out of logical necessity, in which case evidence has no bearing on your belief. Note that you cannot have it both ways.
  8. Donationrwingett
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    05 Oct '06 05:39
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Now we're getting to the heart of the matter.

    What I want to know is whether anybody believes that God exists out of logical necessity. That is, if you believe God exists, do you believe he does so contingently, in which case evidence has bearing on your belief, or out of logical necessity, in which case evidence has no bearing on your belief. Note that you cannot have it both ways.
    St. Anselm's Ontological argument for the existence of god claimed his existence could be known a priori. The Cosmological and the Teleological arguments are a posteriori arguments for the existence of god.
  9. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    05 Oct '06 05:41
    Originally posted by rwingett
    St. Anselm's Ontological argument for the existence of god claimed his existence could be known a priori. The Cosmological and the Teleological arguments are a posteriori arguments for the existence of god.
    And which do you prefer?
  10. Donationrwingett
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    05 Oct '06 05:43
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    And which do you prefer?
    They are all flawed. None of them accomplishes what they set out to do. The teleological argument, as popularized by William Paley, is probably the best known.
  11. Standard memberdj2becker
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    05 Oct '06 08:52
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Must God exist?
    If you are to have an unchanging absolute point of reference by which you can measure all other things, then God has to exist as that unchanging absolute point of reference.
  12. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    05 Oct '06 09:01
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    If you are to have an unchanging absolute point of reference by which you can measure all other things, then God has to exist as that unchanging absolute point of reference.
    Why must we have an unchanging absolute point of reference? And if we are to have one why must it be God? And let's not even mention the fact that declaring that something must exist because we need it to is horrible.
  13. Standard memberdj2becker
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    05 Oct '06 09:14
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    Why must we have an unchanging absolute point of reference? And if we are to have one why must it be God? And let's not even mention the fact that declaring that something must exist because we need it to is horrible.
    You only need it if you want to make sense of the world around you.

    If you have stopped at an intersection and you see the car in front of you moving towards you, for a fraction of a second you go down harder on your break pedal with your foot in order to make sure that it is not you that is moving. Then you look at a lamp-post or something else that is stationary in order to see if in fact you are moving or not.

    Now how would you feel if the lamp-post also started to move?

    God is the only being that can provide us with an unchanging absolute point of reference, by which we can make sense of the world around us, since by definition there is not a moment in time that God did not exist
  14. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    05 Oct '06 09:19
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    You only need it if you want to make sense of the world around you.

    If you have stopped at an intersection and you see the car in front of you moving towards you, for a fraction of a second you go down harder on your break pedal with your foot in order to make sure that it is not you that is moving. Then you look at a lamp-post or something else that i ...[text shortened]... of the world around us, since by definition there is not a moment in time that God did not exist
    So you need God to give your life meaning is what you are saying?
    What about people who don't need God to make their life meaningful?
  15. Standard memberDavid C
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    05 Oct '06 09:22
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    So you need God to give your life meaning is what you are saying?
    I think he's saying if it wasn't for God, lightposts would move around on their own.
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