Another 3 Islamic maniacs locked up

Originally posted by whodey
No, but they are representatives. So here is what you do, add up all the past represetatives of violence in that religion and compare that to other religions and lets see what you come up with.

Of course, it's just a matter of counting.

If one religion has more violent idiots than the next then the whole religion must be thrown out.

If we went by that reasoning then christianity wouldn't have made it through the dark ages.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Right... the christians that might sanction war are not "real" christians.

Of course, muslims don't seem to have this luxury of being able to pass off some of their folk as being fake.

what are you talking about, Muslims have the concept of Jihad, perhaps you can state where the concept is found in the teachings of Christ?

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Of course, it's just a matter of counting.

If one religion has more violent idiots than the next then the whole religion must be thrown out.

If we went by that reasoning then christianity wouldn't have made it through the dark ages.

I would say that if there are a great number of representatives within a particular religion that are doing "bad things" then it is indicative of something gone wrong within it. For example, as you state the Christian religion has a history of Crusades associated with it as well as inquisitions and the persecution of the Jews etc. To this day the religion has suffered bad PR because of these issues in the past. However, what have we today? We have Islam taking up the mantle of hostility toward the Jews and conquest in the name of God via Jihad. Perhaps it is their turn, no?

As a Christian I am even openly willing to condemn such atrocities that were committed in the name of Christ. Now I will just sit back and let my Muslim brothers do the same....although I won't hold my breath.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what are you talking about, Muslims have the concept of Jihad, perhaps you can state where the concept is found in the teachings of Christ?

I'm talking about whenever a christian uses the bible to justify repulsive things then they are "not a real christian" however oddly enough when a muslim does something repulsive (whether they justify it with the koran or not) they seem to represent all muslims.

I didn't say anything about jihad, did I? However, I have heard a number of interpretations of it and not all involve violence.

I also find it odd that it's the christians on this forum who decide who the real christians are and they think it's up to them to decide who the real muslims are too.

Originally posted by whodey
I would say that if there are a great number of representatives within a particular religion that are doing "bad things" then it is indicative of something gone wrong within it. For example, as you state the Christian religion has a history of Crusades associated with it as well as inquisitions and the persecution of the Jews etc. To this day the religion h ...[text shortened]... will just sit back and let my Muslim brothers do the same....although I won't hold my breath.

I would say that if there are a great number of representatives within a particular religion that are doing "bad things" then it is indicative of something gone wrong within it

Possibly, but there are also other reasons - such as cultural and political reasons that might not have anything to do with the religion itself.

We have Islam taking up the mantle of hostility toward the Jews and conquest in the name of God via Jihad.

What a great generalization. So the muslims I work with want to kill me because I'm a jew? Odd.. next time I go to lunch with one of them I'll ask them about that.

Yes, there are muslim groups and people who are advocating some reprehensible things but I don't think that's reason to claim anything about the religion on a whole.

Now I will just sit back and let my Muslim brothers do the same.

And the problem is that you're sitting back and just hoping to find muslims coming to you to condemn any such action as if the muslims who don't support something like that have to prove it to you.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Possibly, but there are also other reasons - such as cultural and political reasons that might not have anything to do with the religion itself.

Very true, but it does not change the fact that they remain representatives of their particular religion. One cannot escape what they claim to be. In fact, any time some anti-abortion head case goes out and kills an abortion doctor out come the athiest band wagon to attack any and all Christians on site.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
What a great generalization. So the muslims I work with want to kill me because I'm a jew? Odd.. next time I go to lunch with one of them I'll ask them about that.

I would not say that every muslim that works with you wants to kill a Jew just like I would not have said the same about Christians during the time of their persecutions against the Jewish people. However, that is not to say that there existed a cultural bias against the Jews who killed their Messiah and will not convert and repent for this deed. The same could be said of the Muslim anti-zionist movement. Granted, it does not make on an anti-semite to be anti-zionist, but I think we have all witnessed or have ample examples of how the hatred toward the zionists spill out to Jews in general. In case you have not witnessed this bias, just turn on the Arab news as they call the Muslims who send their children out into the streets to blow themselves up as freedom fighters and martyres. So what do the average Jewish citizen who live in Israel have to do with Zionism?

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Yes, there are muslim groups and people who are advocating some reprehensible things but I don't think that's reason to claim anything about the religion on a whole.

But when there is next to no condemnation from the religion as a whole about such atrocities, what does that say about them? In addition, the numbers do add up and also is an indication of what is going on in the religion as a whole.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
And the problem is that you're sitting back and just hoping to find muslims coming to you to condemn any such action as if the muslims who don't support something like that have to prove it to you.[/b]

Yes I am hoping to find Muslims who condemn such aggretion. How else can we expect there to be change? So if I hear no condemnation, I can only presume that there will be more of the same.

In short, all we have are representatives from various religious people. So if some of the representatives go bisirk and there is no response about their actions from any other representatives, then what are we to think?

Of course, I just covered the public perception of a particular religion, what about the teachers within a particular religion? The Bible indicates that people are like sheep and need a shepherd. Of course, this is a nice way to say people are stupid lemmings. So what are the shepherds in Islam speaking about regarding such atrocities? That will tell you in large part where the religion is heading.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what are you talking about, Muslims have the concept of Jihad, perhaps you can state where the concept is found in the teachings of Christ?

Many teachings of Christ and Christ's disciples have been misinterpreted to justify or explain seeming non-Christian acts...

In a similar sense, the concept of jihad is also misunderstood by both Muslim and non-Muslim alike and in the same sense as Christian theology and used to justify non-Islamic acts.

As a practicing western universal Sufi, I understand the concept of jihad to be an internal practice in that I declare a Holy War upon that most insidious of all opponents--my very ego. When victory is achieved over that competitor, there are no others to fight against and peace reigns within.

Asalaam Aleykum!!!

Hakima

Originally posted by hakima
As a practicing western universal Sufi, I understand the concept of jihad to be an internal practice in that I declare a Holy War upon that most insidious of all opponents--my very ego. When victory is achieved over that competitor, there are no others to fight against and peace reigns within.

Asalaam Aleykum!!!

Hakima[/b]

Thanks for that, so would you condenm other Muslims who lash out in violence against others in the name of jihad?

Originally posted by whodey
Thanks for that, so would you condenm other Muslims who lash out in violence against others in the name of jihad?

For my understanding, condemnation is, in and of itself an act of violence...not a skillful solution to problems ranging from personal to global.

That being said, the violence of which you speak is equally unjustified and may need to be stopped by means which are distasteful at best. My brother did two tours in the Middle East with the intent to serve his country and help restore some order so that peaceful solutions may override the violence on all sides. It is not without it's price. His children are suffering the effects of the absence of their father for years at a time and he is suffering the psychological effects of PTSD. He did what was his duty and served with honor.

I pray that peace will prevail. I, myself do not have the means of influence that an M16 has in helping establish order...nor do I have the constitution of that type of soldier...again, what I can contribute is personal, intimate and may only have the influence within my own skin...it is jihad enough.

Peace!

Hakima

Originally posted by hakima
[b]For my understanding, condemnation is, in and of itself an act of violence...not a skillful solution to problems ranging from personal to global.

Yes it is a form of violence, just like Christ used violence with the religious leaders of his day and called them out as being hypocrites and asps. Of course, that does not even include him taking a whip and chasing money changers out of the temple. In fact, Jesus said that the violence take it by force, and we see demonstrated time and again acts of violence by Christ but on a spiritual level.

I guess that is the whole issue with me. There is violence all around us but it is directed for various things. For some violence is directed towards political groups, for others it is directed at a particular class of people etc. For Christ, however, it was directed against those who stand in the way of God reconnecting to his people. That means calling out the shepherds that are not shepherding in his name. That means kicking out those who defile and destract those who are in a place of worship. Is it violence? You betcha, and if it is not done nothing will change!!

Of course, that differs greatly in my mind from those who attempt to bring down nations in the name of God, but I'm sure there are those who think that they play the role of Christ using a whip. Unfortunatly for them, Christ gave us no such example so if they are going to pursue such violence then they do so on their own and not by example of Christ.

Originally posted by whodey
Very true, but it does not change the fact that they remain representatives of their particular religion. One cannot escape what they claim to be. In fact, any time some anti-abortion head case goes out and kills an abortion doctor out come the athiest band wagon to attack any and all Christians on site.

My problem is that you can't have it that they are representatives of their religion and the christians who advocate evil in the name of religion are not - since they are "not real christians".

I don't think an anti-abortion head-case represents all of christianity and if I say something to attack all of christianity then please call me on it.

These individuals represent themselves and depending on who they do associate with, represent those sects that hold to their beliefs.

Originally posted by whodey
But when there is next to no condemnation from the religion as a whole about such atrocities, what does that say about them? In addition, the numbers do add up and also is an indication of what is going on in the religion as a whole.

What numbers are you talking about? Do you have a reference for these numbers that you speak of?

How do you get a condemnation from the religion as a whole? Unlike catholicisim there is no one leader of all of islam.