Another innocent murdered in the name of relgio...

Originally posted by twhitehead
If I had one, we'd all be atheists! Sadly, the opposite is taking place. I just read recently that the Chinese are becoming more religious.

However I still hold out hope that education will eventually win out.

Religion provides a convenient scapegoat. The fact is that honour killings occur in many countries. A celebrated RHP example was the honour killing of a Yeziri girl by her family, for seeing a Muslim boy -- ironically, the video was posted in the Debates forum as anti-Muslim propaganda. It's a fair bet that Arabs (amongst others) were committing honour killings before the advent of Islam. So, 'rooting out religion' isn't likely to achieve much, even if it were possible without organised oppression.

Originally posted by Starrman
Kill them all! Let their respective gods sort it out.

They might just kill you first.

i can understand from our beliefs that these are against our teachings, but have we the right to interfear??. this happened in the uk and the people got sentenced as it violated our christian laws. yet our church leader stated recantly we should incorparate some of thier laws within our society. if i lived in another contry i should go by there laws as they should in this.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Religion provides a convenient scapegoat. So, 'rooting out religion' isn't likely to achieve much, even if it were possible without organised oppression.

I already said I didn't think religion was entirely to blame, though it is certainly partly responsible. If the western soldier in question had been Muslim then the family would not have felt so dishonored. The fact is that religion often exacerbates xenophobia and strongly discourages intermarriage with people of different faiths.

I do think that 'rooting out religion' would achieve a lot, though maybe not for this type of problem. I am told that some Zulus also do not take kindly to intermarriage with foreigners though they might prefer to take it out on the foreigner rather than their daughter, and I already mentioned Indians.

Originally posted by twhitehead

I do think that 'rooting out religion' would achieve a lot, though maybe not for this type of problem. I am told that some Zulus also do not take kindly to intermarriage with foreigners though they might prefer to take it out on the foreigner rather than their daughter, and I already mentioned Indians.

How would you 'root it out' -- some sort of educational program telling people their beliefs are wrong? Maybe something a little stronger?

To your examples of Zulus and Indians, I'd like to add the white father who 'isn't comfortable' with his daughter marrying a 'nigger' or a 'kike'.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/true_monsters.php

A 17 year old Iraqi girl was murdered, in the name of religion, by her father and brothers for bringing "shame" onto their family for the sole crime of having a crush on a western soldier.

The worst part is that the father and ...[text shortened]... ss people bickering over senseless things.

The sooner religion chokes its last, the better.

It's true. Religion sucks.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
How would you 'root it out' -- some sort of educational program telling people their beliefs are wrong? Maybe something a little stronger?

I already said I did not have a solution. I do however think that simple education without any specific 'anti-religion' agenda would go a long way towards eliminating a lot of religious beliefs. It can take generations however. Educated people tend to hang on to some of the beliefs of their parents to a certain degree but over the generations they get lost. For example the educated people in Zambia are generally a lot more skeptical about witchcraft than the uneducated ones.

To your examples of Zulus and Indians, I'd like to add the white father who 'isn't comfortable' with his daughter marrying a 'nigger' or a 'kike'.
Now I feel so stupid for not thinking of that as the first example. I was lucky to have a father who did not have that attitude. It wouldn't surprise me if a few daughters got killed both here in South Africa and even in the US for that very 'crime'. A large number of suitors most definitely did get killed in both countries.
Lets have a poll - who here would not object to their daughter marrying someone of a different race (of her choosing), and who would.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I already said I did not have a solution. I do however think that simple education without any specific 'anti-religion' agenda would go a long way towards eliminating a lot of religious beliefs. It can take generations however. Educated people tend to hang on to some of the beliefs of their parents to a certain degree but over the generations they get los ...[text shortened]... eir daughter marrying someone of a different race (of her choosing), and who would.

So, perhaps 'rooting out' is a poor choice of words. Perhaps scottishinnz's rallying call should be 'The sooner everyone is educated, the better' -- although it's not quite as emotive, to be sure.

The 'nigger' example is a good one because I doubt that the basic racist response is religious in nature, although religion can be carved into all manner of interesting crutches.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Lets have a poll - who here would not object to their daughter marrying someone of a different race (of her choosing), and who would.

Do you differ your daughter from your son? Do you want to protect your daughter rather than your son? Is the will of your daughter mean less than the will of your son?

Do you ask the fathers, or do you also ask the mothers? Do you think a father's say-so is more worth than a mothers? Who decide in the family, and who has the most right to do so?

I'd say (if I answer your question) that the love of my son or daughter stands over my decision of who he/she should marry. If he/she has thought over his/hers decision, then who am I to doubt him/her? But his/her mother should also have the question. If we agree, all of us, then there is no problem.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Do you differ your daughter from your son? Do you want to protect your daughter rather than your son? Is the will of your daughter mean less than the will of your son?

Do you ask the fathers, or do you also ask the mothers? Do you think a father's say-so is more worth than a mothers? Who decide in the family, and who has the most right to do so?

I'd ...[text shortened]... is/her mother should also have the question. If we agree, all of us, then there is no problem.

To me this seems reasonable.

Detractors of religion claim that it causes irrational behaviour. Yet I maintain (with the Pope) that reason and faith are compatible. The root of irrationality must be sought elsewhere.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
To me this seems reasonable.

Detractors of religion claim that it causes irrational behaviour. Yet I maintain (with the Pope) that reason and faith are compatible. The root of irrationality must be sought elsewhere.

I agree that the root of irrationality lives elsewhere, but unfortunately it is religion which draws it out for many. Why these people are prone to irrationality is another matter, but religion must bear the blame for the acts they carry out through irrationality.

However, I do not agree that faith and reason are compatible, but only because they've not much to do with each other. The pope's suggestion that they are in some way derived and necessitated from each other is tosh. Reason and faith can exist together in the same way music and literature can be found in the same living room. Reason is the toolbox through which all jobs are carried out. If this toolbox is rusty or the wrong tools are in it, the job is ruined. Faith hasn't anything I can see to do with the technical aspects of carrying out the jobs, but perhaps encourages the worker to see the job through as it were.

Apologies for my mixed metaphors.

Originally posted by Starrman
I agree that the root of irrationality lives elsewhere, but unfortunately it is religion which draws it out for many. Why these people are prone to irrationality is another matter, but religion must bear the blame for the acts they carry out through irrationality.

I have a mental image of you shouting at a book. Had the killings occurred in the UK, would you hold the people in question responsible for their actions, or their religion?

To say that they are compatible just means that they do not exclude each other. Would you disagree with that (if so, take it to the faith & reason thread).

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yet I maintain (with the Pope) that reason and faith are compatible. The root of irrationality must be sought elsewhere.

I beg to differ.

If the Pope has a rational idea thet contradicts the bible in any way, or his cardinals or something, the rational idea will be abandoned.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I beg to differ.

If the Pope has a rational idea thet contradicts the bible in any way, or his cardinals or something, the rational idea will be abandoned.

You have absolutely no idea how the Catholic mind operates. Not even Augustine interpreted the Bible literally.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I have a mental image of you shouting at a book. Had the killings occurred in the UK, would you hold the people in question responsible for their actions, or their religion?

To say that they are compatible just means that they do not exclude each other. Would you disagree with that (if so, take it to the faith & reason thread).

Both, as I do with the people in the actual situation. The people more so, as each individual must be responsible for his own actions above all else. But the religion for creating a climate and a set of beliefs which have in some way warped their moral code. It is a very dangerous path to go down when we begin to absolve people from blame because an institution made them do it.

On the second point, if the question should really be worded 'is faith inconsistent with logic?' and we define faith as an unjustified belief, then yes, faith and reason exclude each other. That would be my view, but I know I have an unpopular definition of faith (that above) which not everyone holds and not everyone would agree that the question should be worded that way either.

I shout at books regularly, in fact many media suffer that fate; tv, radio, my cd collection....