Another innocent murdered in the name of relgio...

Originally posted by Starrman
Both, as I do with the people in the actual situation. The people more so, as each individual must be responsible for his own actions above all else. But the religion for creating a climate and a set of beliefs which have in some way warped their moral code. It is a very dangerous path to go down when we begin to absolve people from blame because an inst shout at books regularly, in fact many media suffer that fate; tv, radio, my cd collection....

You seem to regard religion as some sort of abstract entity that warps human beings, rather than a human construction, for which human beings alone are responsible. A strange view, I must say. (That was what I meant by 'shouting at a book' -- I don't blame you if you didn't get it).

But really, religion seems tantamount to an expression of human nature, with all its delightful paradoxicality.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The 'nigger' example is a good one because I doubt that the basic racist response is religious in nature, although religion can be carved into all manner of interesting crutches.

I agree. What we do not know from the initial post is whether this particular case was one of Xenophobia, racism, hatred of americans, or religious antagonism. I suspect a bit of all of them. I do know that a friend of mine who is Muslim told me that his religion instructs him not to get too friendly with non-Muslims and that such teachings are not uncommon in religious settings and the results can be blamed directly on the religion.

Keep in mind that you are totally correct that 'religion can be carved into all manner of interesting crutches' and that when it is so carved the resulting carving is a religion and can be blamed for the results especially when it is passed on complete with attendant crutches.
For example, the fact that the Bible contains some homophobic verses has definitely made some Christians more homophobic.
The problems surrounding Israel would almost completely evaporate if everyone in the area joined the same religion or lost their religion altogether.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You seem to regard religion as some sort of abstract entity that warps human beings, rather than a human construction, for which human beings alone are responsible. A strange view, I must say. (That was what I meant by 'shouting at a book' -- I don't blame you if you didn't get it).

But really, religion seems tantamount to an expression of human nature, with all its delightful paradoxicality.

That depends on whether you mean the institution that is religion or the set of things which give rise to the pursuit of religion. The institution does warp, the set of things which gives rise to it is part and parcel of humanity.

Originally posted by Starrman
That depends on whether you mean the institution that is religion or the set of things which give rise to the pursuit of religion. The institution does warp, the set of things which gives rise to it is part and parcel of humanity.

Well, perhaps we should distinguish between these things before discussing religion, just so we don't go about things arse about face. (And what is the institution if not the sum of the human beings that constitute it?)

Originally posted by twhitehead
To what extent is religion to blame and to what extent is xenophobia to blame, or other cultural issues? And to what extent can we blame oil? Some Iraqis resent the US for essentially taking over their country uninvited. I might possibly feel the same way however bad my dictator was, especially when it is painfully obvious that benefit to the people was n ...[text shortened]... ned by her parents for marrying a foreigner. I doubt that that had anything to do with religion.

The guy specifically said that he was doing it to honour his religion. I imagine that makes it pretty cut and dried.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Deplorable. What's your solution?

I'm unsure whether you find me or the story deplorable. Or both.

Do you want my solution to the problem, or the solution to me?? So many questions....

Anyhoo, I feel that the leaders of these faiths either have to come out and admit that religion is a fable and they are fakers (unlikely, they won't relinquish power for the good of anyone else, methinks), or we need to pressure our political leaders (remember, this happenned in Iraq, supposedly allowed by the UK and US forces there) to do something about this - they cannot allow barbarity, even religious barbarity, to continue unchecked. Or we just keep doing what we're doing, and year by year push religion further from the mainstream, first in our society, then progressively out of others too.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Religion provides a convenient scapegoat. The fact is that honour killings occur in many countries. A celebrated RHP example was the honour killing of a Yeziri girl by her family, for seeing a Muslim boy -- ironically, the video was posted in the Debates forum as anti-Muslim propaganda. It's a fair bet that Arabs (amongst others) were committing honour ...[text shortened]... ligion' isn't likely to achieve much, even if it were possible without organised oppression.

Well, based upon the quotes of what he himself said, it seems to have been the sole reason for it.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Perhaps scottishinnz's rallying call should be 'The sooner everyone is educated, the better' -- although it's not quite as emotive, to be sure.

That sounds equally good to my ears. The more educated people are, the less likely they are to be religious.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I'm unsure whether you find me or the story deplorable. Or both..

I meant the story. Although your thinking (on this topic) is deplorably shallow.

When you talk about 'what we are doing' -- do you belong to some kind of organization? There are hints of some covert agency in your comments that strike me as a little sinister.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
that reason and faith are compatible.

Depends on the axioms you start with, no?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I meant the story. Although your thinking (on this topic) is deplorably shallow.

When you talk about 'what we are doing' -- do you belong to some kind of organization? There are hints of some covert agency in your comments that strike me as a little sinister.

Well, being a scientist, I'm in the business of education.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I have a mental image of you shouting at a book. Had the killings occurred in the UK, would you hold the people in question responsible for their actions, or their religion?

To say that they are compatible just means that they do not exclude each other. Would you disagree with that (if so, take it to the faith & reason thread).

Of course, individuals are responsible for their actions.

Osama bin Laden didn't commit the attacks on September 11th 2001, yet the US seems (seemed) pretty hell bend on holding him accountable for them. It seems we can hold leaders responsible for their followers actions.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Of course, individuals are responsible for their actions.

Osama bin Laden didn't commit the attacks on September 11th 2001, yet the US seems (seemed) pretty hell bend on holding him accountable for them. It seems we can hold leaders responsible for their followers actions.

Unless individuals are forced to follow a leader, then I think individuals are responsible for what they do. Otherwise you have the Auschwitz cop-out: 'I was just obeying orders'.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
what is the institution if not the sum of the human beings that constitute it?

The sum of the people, its history, its political and financial power base etc.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Well, being a scientist, I'm in the business of education.

I imagine you confine your teaching to your field of expertise -- remind me what it is? -- and don't waste your and other people's time on topics that don't concern you.

Does religion crop up much in your seminars? Have you got any religious colleagues? Do / Would you treat them with respect?