1. Account suspended
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    15 Oct '08 20:35
    this question has long plagued me, considering that it is well understood that humans definitely have a spiritual side. For example, we have a universal conscience in which we try to determine through our perceptions what is good and wrong, we are endowed for example with the capacity to love, which we need and thrive upon, we have a sense of justice etc etc. we can appreciate things like art and music, things which are superfluous to our survival, but probably the most damning piece of evidence against a purely material view of the universe is the mathematical probability of life having arisen by chance.

    Consider the words of nobel laureate Christian de Duve, “Chance, and chance alone, did it all, from the primeval soup to man,” speaking about the origin of life, soup, i have to laugh, was it chicken or Scotch broth.

    however, is chance, though, a rational, logical and reasonable explanation for the cause of life? in other words is a purely materialistic, atheistic view of life acceptable, are atheists for real?

    consider the mathematics, of the one hundred known amino acids, (we shall of necessity assume that most atheists profess a materialistic view of life, that life has arisen from non-living matter in the form of amino acids which formed the basic building blocks for life in some type of pre-biotic, 'soup', ahem, although I realize that this is a generalization, we do not have time to consider all the nuances of the superstition, ok, where were we, ah yes) only twenty or so are used to make proteins the building blocks of life, and it must be added that all are of a specific type, now back to the organic soup, what is the chance that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule?

    It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red jelly beans and white jelly beans, (i like jelly beans) there are also over 100 different varieties of jelly beans (mmm, tasty). Now if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get? to get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones, no white ones at all!!! and your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red jelly beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop, wow!

    In the world of a little biddy protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly. Would any amount of stirring and scooping and shaking in our hypothetical jelly bean pile have given the right combination? hardly, then how would it have been possible in the hypothetical organic chicken soup? i dunno, and anyhow are atheists for real?

    plus, yes there is more the proteins needed for life have very complex molecules so what is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic chicken soup? given our scenario it must be acknowledge to be only one in 10 to the power of 113 (1 followed by 113 zeros). But any event that has one chance in just 10 to the power of 50 (1 followed by 50 zeros) is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10 to the power of 113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe! are atheists for real!

    Man you think that was damning, well, consider this, some proteins serve as structural materials and others as enzymes, the latter speed up needed chemical reactions in the cell, so without such help, the cell would die. Now not just a few, but 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell’s activity, gulp i hear you say, what are the chances of obtaining all of these at random? One chance in 10 to the power of 40,000! (1 followed by 40,000 zeros!!!!) a scandalously outrageous outrageously small probability!!! are athiests fro real

    you think that after having given consideration to the fact that water is non conducive to the forming of molecules, it is essentially favours depolymerization (it tries to break up big molecules into wee ones) rather than polymerization and the presence of destructive uv light, I find it extremely difficult that atheists are for real!

    you would think that having considered the fossil record and the evident spontaneous generation of whole species therein would have been enough to convince even the most ardent of skeptics, but alas no, this superstition has gone forth into the entire inhabited earth, for it is known every where to have been spoken against. Acts 28:22
  2. At the Revolution
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    15 Oct '08 20:50
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    this question has long plagued me, considering that it is well understood that humans definitely have a spiritual side. For example, we have a universal conscience in which we try to determine through our perceptions what is good and wrong, we are endowed for example with the capacity to love, which we need and thrive upon, we have a sense of justic ...[text shortened]... he entire inhabited earth, for it is known every where to have been spoken against. Acts 28:22
    No. We're a figment of your imagination. Go back to sleep.
  3. Joined
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    15 Oct '08 21:14
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    consider the mathematics, of the one hundred known amino acids,
    Are there really so many as a hundred known amino acids?
    I thought that only 22 or so is possible for DNA to produce.

    Bur from these there can be hundreds, thousand, or probably many more that can be produced by combining amino acids...

    Correct me if I'm wrong...
  4. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    15 Oct '08 21:301 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    this question has long plagued me, considering that it is well understood that humans definitely have a spiritual side. For example, we have a universal conscience in which we try to determine through our perceptions what is good and wrong, we are endowed for example with the capacity to love, which we need and thrive upon, we have a sense of justic he entire inhabited earth, for it is known every where to have been spoken against. Acts 28:22
    And you know what the common theist's answer is to all this?

    Posit a being that is even more complex than the material universe, and then refuse, or fail, to explain how IT came to be!
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    15 Oct '08 21:54
    I don't know that it's definitely known that humans have a "spiritual" side. I'm not entirely sure what "spiritual" means. I would not call any of the stuff you talk about as necessarily spiritual.

    But yes, I am real, and I am an atheist.

    As far as your argument goes, and in case no one has said something like this yet: The probability of all the molecules of life coming together at once to form a functioning cell are very high. The probability of intermediate steps along the way--and remember, we're talking about timescales that are at least a thousand times longer than the entire history of human culture from the first artifact to the present day--well, you can do the math, or try to follow along with the arguments of those that have.
  6. Seattle
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    15 Oct '08 21:56
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    And you know what the common theist's answer is to all this?

    Posit a being that is even more complex than the material universe, and then refuse, or fail, to explain how IT came to be!
    what is easier to explain? that something finite somehow and unexplainably came into existence (it couldn't be eternal because a) that would make it 'god,' furthermore everything in our universe dying, so how could an enternal become finite?) or that something guided the odds...I believe that it's not that theism is such an amazing answer, it's just the least worse as far as creation is concerened
  7. Joined
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    15 Oct '08 21:591 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you think that after having given consideration to the fact that water is non conducive to the forming of molecules, it is essentially favours depolymerization (it tries to break up big molecules into wee ones) rather than polymerization and the presence of destructive uv light, I find it extremely difficult that atheists are for real!
    Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

    In what way is water not conducive to the forming of molecules? Why would it favor depolymerization? I'm pretty sure it does not, in fact, because if I dump some cornstarch into water, it remains cornstarch. I'd have to cook it for quite a long time to make it something other than a polymer. Same thing for most plastics.
  8. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    15 Oct '08 22:36
    Originally posted by c guy1
    what is easier to explain? that something finite somehow and unexplainably came into existence (it couldn't be eternal because a) that would make it 'god,' furthermore everything in our universe dying, so how could an enternal become finite?) or that something guided the odds...I believe that it's not that theism is such an amazing answer, it's just the least worse as far as creation is concerened
    Why don't theists ever crunch the numbers on the probability of God's existence? I mean, if you really want to do a fair comparison, be consistent in your methodology.
  9. Joined
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    15 Oct '08 22:47
    Originally posted by c guy1
    what is easier to explain? that something finite somehow and unexplainably came into existence (it couldn't be eternal because a) that would make it 'god,' furthermore everything in our universe dying, so how could an enternal become finite?) or that something guided the odds...I believe that it's not that theism is such an amazing answer, it's just the least worse as far as creation is concerened
    Why is "something finite somehow and unexplainably [sic] came into existence" a bad answer? I mean, explanations are great, but I'm pretty certain that I'll never get a real explanation as to why the US has to spend $700bn to bail out some bankers while real people are losing their homes.

    I'd love to know *why* energy happened, but I'm fine with knowing that it just happened.
  10. Account suspended
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    15 Oct '08 23:34
    Originally posted by scherzo
    No. We're a figment of your imagination. Go back to sleep.
    yawn, what a crashing bore and tiresome fellow, i think i am feeling sleepy after all.
  11. Donationbbarr
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    16 Oct '08 00:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    this question has long plagued me, considering that it is well understood that humans definitely have a spiritual side. For example, we have a universal conscience in which we try to determine through our perceptions what is good and wrong, we are endowed for example with the capacity to love, which we need and thrive upon, we have a sense of justic ...[text shortened]... he entire inhabited earth, for it is known every where to have been spoken against. Acts 28:22
    What does any of this have to do with atheism? Atheism does not entail materialism, nor is atheism committed to any particular abiogenetic theory.
  12. Joined
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    16 Oct '08 07:392 edits
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Are there really so many as a hundred known amino acids?
    I thought that only 22 or so is possible for DNA to produce.

    Bur from these there can be hundreds, thousand, or probably many more that can be produced by combining amino acids...

    Correct me if I'm wrong...
    You are correct:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid

    robbie carrobie

    Please get your basic scientific facts correct before making quotes about it -it is not nice misrepresenting science.
    I do not misrepresent the Bible by quoting fictitious “Bible verses” that don’t exist in the Bible!
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    16 Oct '08 07:54
    I think that most believers or non-believers are probably in between. Agnostic. The thing is that in this existence it will always be an open question. We won't find out until we die and at that point no one gets to come back and say "I told you so!" one way or the other.

    So if 'God' exists when you and I pass on, the athiests are going to look silly. If 'God' does not exist when we pass on then the believers are going to look silly. If nothing is there when we pass on then all this ranting one way or another amounts to squat.

    I could be persuaded that God doesn't exist. That's not where I stand in and of myself, but I'm not about to tell an athiest that they're wrong. In all honesty, I enjoy reading what some of the athiests have to say more than the plenary believers. There's a few here that are logical and well spoken and I consider what they are saying very carefully. It's all good, to me.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
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    16 Oct '08 09:31
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    this question has long plagued me, considering that it is well understood that humans definitely have a spiritual side. For example, we have a universal conscience in which we try to determine through our perceptions what is good and wrong, we are endowed for example with the capacity to love, which we need and thrive upon, we have a sense of justic ...[text shortened]... he entire inhabited earth, for it is known every where to have been spoken against. Acts 28:22
    Hey rrrobbie ye numptie I m a devoted atheist that I believe and support the spiritualism of the individual and I have the same divinity that you have within yourself, a' ae oo.

    So what, do you really think that you Christians you have the copyright of the Faith? Do you really think that your truth is the Absolut Truth? 🙂

    You see "faith" for me is my determination to hold myself on the track that I desire no matter of what, and it 's a whole complex of attitude, morals and energy. Afterall when I block your pawn I do not block in fact your pawn; when I open a file I do not open in fact a file;

    Should auld acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind?
  15. Standard memberblack beetle
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    16 Oct '08 09:35
    Originally posted by Badwater
    I think that most believers or non-believers are probably in between. Agnostic. The thing is that in this existence it will always be an open question. We won't find out until we die and at that point no one gets to come back and say "I told you so!" one way or the other.

    So if 'God' exists when you and I pass on, the athiests are going to look silly. If ...[text shortened]... ll spoken and I consider what they are saying very carefully. It's all good, to me.
    But eas it, a puir man is fain o little; ye leggedy beastie keep i Absolut an I keep up wi it Malt

    😵
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