Spirituality
10 Feb 14
10 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustI haven't been inside one for several decades, but when I was a young child, we went to an RLDS church down the street from us (the Kansas City equivalent of Mormons), so I know a slight amount about Mormon beliefs. One thing I remember is that you wait until you are eight to be baptized. If I remember right, it is supposedly because they want you be old enough to decide for yourself whether you want to join the church. But of course, what eight year old has that capability? I know this has some history in Christianity (Infant Baptism vs. Believer Baptism), but still is a little unusual.
Am I the only one or are the debates between the JWs and the more "mainline" denominations becoming boring?
The position of JWs on the trinity, blood and eschatology (just to name three) are well known, - as are some of the counter arguments. And if the past so many years are any indication, nobody is convincing anybody!
This "discussion" seems to impl ...[text shortened]... how about relieving the boredom with some discussion of the doctrines of the Latter Day Saints?
Also, a funny story I've always loved. My father used to tell a story about how he was "excommunicated" by the Mormons. I don't know if it was an official excommunication, but for a while he went to a LDS (Mormon) church, then started going to an RLDS Church. Some people from his Mormon church found out, and came to the house and excommunicated him. In Kansas City, there used to be this huge rivalry between LDS and RLDS, which goes back to the Joseph Smith days. When Joseph Smith was killed, the church split into the Brigham Young faction (which went to Utah), and some other less successful factions. The Kansas City area faction ended up having Joseph Smith's descendants stay in charge. I've always been jealous of my Dad for getting excommunicated from a church.
10 Feb 14
Originally posted by PatNovakI guess excommunication from a church must be a great honor for your family, maybe better than winning olympic medals is to others.
I haven't been inside one for several decades, but when I was a young child, we went to an RLDS church down the street from us (the Kansas City equivalent of Mormons), so I know a slight amount about Mormon beliefs. One thing I remember is that you wait until you are eight to be baptized. If I remember right, it is supposedly because they want you be old en ...[text shortened]... nts stay in charge. I've always been jealous of my Dad for getting excommunicated from a church.
10 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsNot a bad comparison, as both are rare accomplishments. Obviously an Olympic medal requires much more effort to accomplish, but I think excommunication is a better story to tell.
I guess excommunication from a church must be a great honor for your family, maybe better than winning olympic medals is to others.
10 Feb 14
2 edits
Originally posted by Rank outsiderHi RO,
Would you be interested in a debate about whether, and if so why, belief in the absence of evidence is a good thing?
I am thinking about John 20:24-29, which I have never understood.
If so, I will start a thread.
If you like you can make this a new thread. I do have some views on the subject, which is basically that nobody believes anything without evidence.
Even the reference in vs 29 (blessed are they which have not seen yet believe) must refer to some previous encounter, or past teaching, which they must hold to.
In this particular case, Jesus could have meant: " Thomas, OK, so now you have seen. But the others who believed without seeing this, based their faith on what I told them all along, that this is what would happen."
In my own, albeit limited, experience, most of the people which "believe" in the face of contrary experience, or against all other evidence, are merely trying to convince themselves and sooner or later their house of cards falls apart.
My own faith is most definitely not based on " blind faith" but on experience and what I learned from people that I respect.
Not sure if this helps you. I think we have read too much into that scripture. Was it Kierkegaard who dismissed the idea of a "blind leap of faith into the unknown"?
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10 Feb 14
Originally posted by Rank outsiderThat's exactly as I read it also. Which is a shame really as the Mormon brand of Christian-crazy would make the JWs look like Quakers.
Actually I don't think a literalist reading supports this.
The title says 'Are there any Mormons out there?', when it would have been more normal to say 'Are there any other Mormons out there?'.
I had read the sentence beginning 'Am I the only one....' as CalJust asking if he is the only one finding the debates between the JWs and other denominations boring.
I am sure CalJust will clarify.
11 Feb 14
My issues with the Mormons is this mainly historical and archeology proves out that what they claim is false. Not to mention where are these Golden Plates ? In the book of Mormon (which I read a long time ago) it mentions these great cities and civilization that was here in the Americas but the Native Americans did not build these huge cities referenced in the book of Mormon. There would be remains the story just does not jive with reality.
Manny
11 Feb 14
Originally posted by menace71The thing that intrigues me with groups like the Mormons, is what was the motivation for their origin?
My issues with the Mormons is this mainly historical and archeology proves out that what they claim is false. Not to mention where are these Golden Plates ? In the book of Mormon (which I read a long time ago) it mentions these great cities and civilization that was here in the Americas but the Native Americans did not build these huge cities referenced in the book of Mormon. There would be remains the story just does not jive with reality.
Manny
There are other groups whose breakaway from orthodoxy occurred due to differing interpretations of the Bible - and we've certainly seen enough of that on RHP. Then there are those (e.g. scientology) whose primary purpose seems to have been commercial.
But who on earth would come up with the idea of an angel appearing with golden tablets (which conveniently were taken back again!)? Then there were the Witnesses who saw it and testified to it, etc etc.
The idea is so outrageous, yet there are thousands who have suffered persecution rather than give it up as a hoax. The dynamics intrigues me!
For example, let's say that you REALLY , (yes, really!) were abducted by aliens and taken to their spaceship, etc, and returned safely to earth. Who would you tell??
11 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustYou mean like the story in Ezekiel where he goes up to gods' spaceship with an altar inside ?? 🙄🙄🙄🙄
The thing that intrigues me with groups like the Mormons, is what was the motivation for their origin?
There are other groups whose breakaway from orthodoxy occurred due to differing interpretations of the Bible - and we've certainly seen enough of that on RHP. Then there are those (e.g. scientology) whose primary purpose seems to have been commercial.
T ...[text shortened]... by aliens and taken to their spaceship, etc, and returned safely to earth. Who would you tell??
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11 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustThere are only two possible motivations behind any of the cults; money and/or power. But I don't find this intriguing, just distasteful.
The thing that intrigues me with groups like the Mormons, is what was the motivation for their origin?
The thing that intrigues me is how millions of people can give their lives to organisations (as opposed to an independent, purely spiritual calling) like the CoLDS or the JWs and never question the motivation of their leadership's decisions or decision making processes over the decades.
11 Feb 14
Originally posted by divegeesterMany people just do not want to take on the responsibility of thinking for themselves...
There are only two possible motivations behind any of the cults; money and/or power. But I don't find this intriguing, just distasteful.
The thing that intrigues me is how millions of people can give their lives to organisations (as opposed to an independent, purely spiritual calling) like the CoLDS or the JWs and never question the motivation of their leadership's decisions or decision making processes over the decades.
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11 Feb 14
Originally posted by caissad4Yes, I think there is in some people more of a sense of denial than of faith. This is partly why I remain fiercely independent of Christian denomination (good fellowship notwithstanding), not that this provides any security, on the contrary I am as open as possible for a Christian to be, to freedom of thought vs what the Bible terms "the renewing of the mind". Those people in the cults are so trapped by the organisation and it's construct of fear of leaving that they can never objectively view the very religion they claim to belong to.
Many people just do not want to take on the responsibility of thinking for themselves...
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by divegeesterCaissad4 and divegeester,
There are only two possible motivations behind any of the cults; money and/or power. But I don't find this intriguing, just distasteful.
The thing that intrigues me is how millions of people can give their lives to organisations (as opposed to an independent, purely spiritual calling) like the CoLDS or the JWs and never question the motivation of their leadership's decisions or decision making processes over the decades.
Not sure if those are the only two alternatives, dg. Of course, many cults DO show these symptoms, but what if neither Power nor Wealth is evident?
Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I propose that there are examples of sincere convictions, although the sincerity may be misplaced.
For example, just for a minute take my scenario seriously.
Let's imagine that you walk out into your front garden at night and (provide your own details here) you are invited onto a spaceship and returned.
Going through your mind will be a lot of powerful emotions, e.g.
1. I simply HAVE to tell someone!!
2. But if I do, they will lock me up in the looneybin for sure!
The choice is yours whether to take the risk or take the secret to your grave.
My point is that IMHO some of these sects MUST have been based on some actual event occurring, which obviously (on further reflection) can succumb to an alternative interpretation, or be the basis of a whole new movement (as in the case of COJCOLDS).
A follow up question, which also intrigues me, is that how can anyone (me obviously included) ever know that they are correct, in view of the many alternative explanations and world views, ALL of whose holders obviously believe that THEIR view is the correct one?