1. Wat?
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    11 Apr '11 08:22
    who believe atheists cannot possibly have faith?

    I sure have faith in my philosophies, that bring faith in much of what I do.

    Do you believe my faith is a false and blind faith, as it doesn't contain a God image?

    Please enlighten me as to whether or not you think atheists cannot be faithful.

    -m.
  2. Account suspended
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    11 Apr '11 12:221 edit
    Originally posted by mikelom
    who believe atheists cannot possibly have faith?

    I sure have faith in my philosophies, that bring faith in much of what I do.

    Do you believe my faith is a false and blind faith, as it doesn't contain a God image?

    Please enlighten me as to whether or not you think atheists cannot be faithful.

    -m.
    The main difference I think is, that yours is a human vision, by its very nature, and the
    theists claims that his is of divine origin. Of course you exercise faith, after all, you're
    philosophy is based upon unobserved phenomena as much as the theist, in fact, i
    would go a step further and state that your faith must be greater, because it takes a
    greater leap of faith to assert that we are human as a consequence of gases and inert
    rocks, time and chance occurrence.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    11 Apr '11 13:21
    Originally posted by mikelom
    who believe atheists cannot possibly have faith?

    I sure have faith in my philosophies, that bring faith in much of what I do.

    Do you believe my faith is a false and blind faith, as it doesn't contain a God image?

    Please enlighten me as to whether or not you think atheists cannot be faithful.

    -m.
    Faithful to what, nothing?
    Kelly
  4. Joined
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    11 Apr '11 13:56
    Originally posted by mikelom
    who believe atheists cannot possibly have faith?

    I sure have faith in my philosophies, that bring faith in much of what I do.

    Do you believe my faith is a false and blind faith, as it doesn't contain a God image?

    Please enlighten me as to whether or not you think atheists cannot be faithful.

    -m.
    all people are faithful. they just have faith in different things. decent people have faith in love, compassion, their friends. non-decent beings have faith that they will not get caught when they do something anti-social.


    the problem with some atheists is that they don't admit they have faith and hypocritically mock anyone who does
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    11 Apr '11 14:02
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    all people are faithful. they just have faith in different things. decent people have faith in love, compassion, their friends. non-decent beings have faith that they will not get caught when they do something anti-social.


    the problem with some atheists is that they don't admit they have faith and hypocritically mock anyone who does
    or the problem with some theists is that they fail to recognise spirituality in others.
  6. Wat?
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    11 Apr '11 14:05
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    all people are faithful. they just have faith in different things. decent people have faith in love, compassion, their friends. non-decent beings have faith that they will not get caught when they do something anti-social.


    the problem with some atheists is that they don't admit they have faith and hypocritically mock anyone who does
    There are theists who claim to have faith in a God and don't, because they aren't quite sure - as it was a follow on from parenting -, and they mock people who don't.

    However, I wasn't going down that route.

    It has been claimed by many a theist in this forum that atheists cannot possibly be faithful to good living standards and compassion, as we have no morals or morale, as a result of having no God icon.

    I raised the question, irrelevant of my Buddhist views, because all atheists in my opinion are quite capable of having the true depth of humanity and human compassion, care, love, sensuality etc without the need for an iconic leader. I believe it is inherent that we are all 'uniquely' similar ( a paradox - I know) in possessing those qualities of faith in each other, whether we carry a God and belief of such or not!

    -m.
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    11 Apr '11 14:27
    Originally posted by mikelom
    There are theists who claim to have faith in a God and don't, because they aren't quite sure - as it was a follow on from parenting -, and they mock people who don't.

    However, I wasn't going down that route.

    It has been claimed by many a theist in this forum that atheists cannot possibly be faithful to good living standards and compassion, as we have n ...[text shortened]... qualities of faith in each other, whether we carry a God and belief of such or not!

    -m.
    like snowflakes 🙂
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    11 Apr '11 14:37
    Originally posted by mikelom
    There are theists who claim to have faith in a God and don't, because they aren't quite sure - as it was a follow on from parenting -, and they mock people who don't.

    However, I wasn't going down that route.

    It has been claimed by many a theist in this forum that atheists cannot possibly be faithful to good living standards and compassion, as we have n ...[text shortened]... qualities of faith in each other, whether we carry a God and belief of such or not!

    -m.
    the problem is that both sides use the opinions of a misguided minority from the opposing camp to mock, ridicule, demean their opponents. not all theists are insane fundies who believe the world was created in 7 days and that noah's flood was real and adam and eve rode dinosaurs on their way to bedrock to meet the flintstones. and not all atheists believe theists are weak, scared sheeple who can't reason for themselves.


    the above is in response to your sentence that begins with "There are theists who claim". to me that is as a productive topic of discussion as "there are germans who believe hitler was a great man". all most reasonable people can say is that is wrong.


    this topic will either end quickly with everyone agreeing that the opinions of the few are not the opinions of the many (as it should be) or there will be off topic postings, some will start with insults, and we will probably end up discussing about the weather past the 300th post
  9. Wat?
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    11 Apr '11 14:521 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    the problem is that both sides use the opinions of a misguided minority from the opposing camp to mock, ridicule, demean their opponents. not all theists are insane fundies who believe the world was created in 7 days and that noah's flood was real and adam and eve rode dinosaurs on their way to bedrock to meet the flintstones. and not all atheists believe t with insults, and we will probably end up discussing about the weather past the 300th post
    I am in total agreement.

    Edit: However, it does raise the value that atheists have attributes to make in this forum, contrary to some recent posts which suggested we are non-entities when it comes to being spiritual. Faith itself is spiritual, irrelevant of where its guidance came from, isn't it?

    -m.
  10. Cape Town
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    11 Apr '11 14:58
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    the problem is that both sides use the opinions of a misguided minority from the opposing camp to mock, ridicule, demean their opponents. not all theists are insane fundies who believe the world was created in 7 days and that noah's flood was real and adam and eve rode dinosaurs on their way to bedrock to meet the flintstones.
    Nevertheless, the vast majority of theists belief in things that are equally unbelievable to someone not holding the same beliefs. eg the resurrection of Christ, and most of the miracles performed by Christ are considered to have happened and to be of supernatural origin by most Christians, yet to me, they are no more believable than the flood or 7 day creation. Yet you seem quite comfortable ridiculing those that hold the flood or 7 day creation to be factual, but don't do the same for those that believe in the resurrection. I can only guess that it is because you yourself believe the latter.
  11. Cape Town
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    11 Apr '11 15:02
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    all people are faithful. they just have faith in different things. decent people have faith in love, compassion, their friends. non-decent beings have faith that they will not get caught when they do something anti-social.
    I have, in the past, acted completely irrationally due to romantic love. However, if someone pointed out that I was being irrational, I would fully admit it, but reserve my right to do so.
    It think that people have a right to hold irrational religious beliefs, and act irrationally, but when those beliefs cause harm to others then it becomes a problem. However, Richard Dawkins make a good case that all religious belief tends to encourage others to hold religious belief and thus encourages irrationality and extremism.
  12. Standard memberAgerg
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    11 Apr '11 16:023 edits
    Originally posted by mikelom
    I am in total agreement.

    Edit: However, it does raise the value that atheists have attributes to make in this forum, contrary to some recent posts which suggested we are non-entities when it comes to being spiritual. Faith itself is spiritual, irrelevant of where its guidance came from, isn't it?

    -m.
    I think the value that atheists add to this forum even if, like myself, they don't regard themselves as `spiritual' (still don't have a concrete definition of that word), is more than certain posters are capable of acknowledging at the moment. Many atheists, myself included, seek to correct ignorant views (evolution being a prime example) and irrational positions in the hope of debating more sophisticated points and better armed `opponents' in the future. This is surely a win-win situation for all concerned if we can motivate a transition from rabid fundamentalism to a better informed, and at at the very least, more compromising approach to religion.

    Contrary to what the majority of theists here think (there are exceptions) most of us are not actually here to prove that gods cannot exist.
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    11 Apr '11 16:16
    Originally posted by mikelom
    who believe atheists cannot possibly have faith?

    I sure have faith in my philosophies, that bring faith in much of what I do.

    Do you believe my faith is a false and blind faith, as it doesn't contain a God image?

    Please enlighten me as to whether or not you think atheists cannot be faithful.

    -m.
    I believe the devout theist's "faith" is entirely different from non-theistic "faith" in its feel. I think the feeling can be approached by thinking about what it means to have faith in your life-partner, as opposed to having faith that a ladder will support you, and as opposed to having faith that, say, Mars has two moons or other factual situations you do not personally observe. If these three kinds of "faith" represent a ranking from the sublime to the mundane, the "faith" of the devout theist ranks above them all.
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    11 Apr '11 19:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Nevertheless, the vast majority of theists belief in things that are equally unbelievable to someone not holding the same beliefs. eg the resurrection of Christ, and most of the miracles performed by Christ are considered to have happened and to be of supernatural origin by most Christians, yet to me, they are no more believable than the flood or 7 day cr ...[text shortened]... lieve in the resurrection. I can only guess that it is because you yourself believe the latter.
    if someone would point out how something i believe in is impossible, i would be happy to hear their argument and change my belief. however, unexplained does not equal impossible. or i might not be in agreement with their view on "irrefutable proof". otherwise, believing something you have no proof in but won't hurt you if proven incorrect is not such a bad thing. it makes you happy until proof arrives. it is human.


    people would believe their favorite footbal team will win. no use being pessimistic and not feel happy. the unhealthy action would be to bet your life savings on that belief.
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    11 Apr '11 19:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have, in the past, acted completely irrationally due to romantic love. However, if someone pointed out that I was being irrational, I would fully admit it, but reserve my right to do so.
    It think that people have a right to hold irrational religious beliefs, and act irrationally, but when those beliefs cause harm to others then it becomes a problem. Ho ...[text shortened]... ds to encourage others to hold religious belief and thus encourages irrationality and extremism.
    this post pretty much sums up my view on religion. from a logical point of view, religion (better said, spirituality) is illogical. it is wishful thinking. one shouldn't conduct scientific research in that manner. however one should be careful not to live his/her life in a logical manner. important parts of it might be lost.
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