Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not sure what the Shroud proves, I'm not even sure I believe the claims
about it.

The Shroud of Turin proves that Jesus was put to death in the manner told in the Gospels and that He rose from the dead for many, including me.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Shroud of Turin proves that Jesus was put to death in the manner told in the Gospels and that He rose from the dead for many, including me.

The shroud of Turin proves nothing, except that late mediaeval Italians were good at forgery.

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
The shroud of Turin proves nothing, except that late mediaeval Italians were good at forgery.

The forgery myth has been disproved by the scientists. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
The forgery myth has been disproved by the scientists. 😏

So then I can assume JC's social security number was embossed on the cloth as well? Maybe his drivers license #, maybe some distinguishing tats?

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Shroud of Turin proves that Jesus was put to death in the manner told in the Gospels and that He rose from the dead for many, including me.

I figured that out, and it is okay, you could be right. I just don't think it is
a slam shut thing in my opinion! I think the fact that millions are Christians
and have had their lives turned around due to God being in their lives
speaks to that point for me more than the Shroud does.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The forgery myth has been disproved by the scientists. 😏

Cite, please. Credible cite, not one from Fox News.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think the fact that millions are Christians
and have had their lives turned around due to God being in their lives
speaks to that point for me more than the Shroud does.

And what does the fact that millions of Muslims have had their lives turned around speak to?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not sure what the Shroud proves, I'm not even sure I believe the claims
about it.

The 95% confidence interval for its radio-carbon dating was 1,260 to 1,390 A.D.. It has significant historical importance either as an amazing forgery from the middle ages or if the dating is wrong for some reason as the burial shroud of the historical Jesus of Nazareth. In the event that it's all true and it is the burial shroud of the historical Jesus and Jesus is the Divi Filius then it has cosmic importance, but even then I think your assessment in your later post is correct - artefacts are artefacts and faith is faith.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I figured that out, and it is okay, you could be right. I just don't think it is
a slam shut thing in my opinion! I think the fact that millions are Christians
and have had their lives turned around due to God being in their lives
speaks to that point for me more than the Shroud does.

Millions are muslims, and have had their life turned around due to Allah being in their lives.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And what does the fact that millions of Muslims have had their lives turned around speak to?

Oh, I should have kept reading before posting. Sorry. 😕

Originally posted by C Hess
Oh, I should have kept reading before posting. Sorry. 😕

Its actually a good thing as he may actually respond to you. Kelly has refused to talk to me since I pushed him on the consequences of his beliefs on astronomy and starlight.
Kelly believes the universe is young, but refuses to take ownership of his beliefs. You will notice that he never gave an honest answer to Proper Knobs question. He simply cannot come out and admit that he his beliefs imply the vast majority of scientists are wrong about most of science. Kelly is the master of vagueness.

Originally posted by C Hess
My design argument thread seems to have derailed beyond all rescue. But it derailed into a rant for a new thread, so here we go.

I was once told that the reason I get frustrated and a tad angry everytime someone compares cellular DNA to computer programming, or complex human-built objects to living things, in an attempt to demonstrate the need for a creato ...[text shortened]... eeling we'll be talking about science, evolution, creationism and bad analogies, all over again.

Stop wasting your brain power trying to impress everyone in this forum that you are an academic.

We know you are an academic...........so now is the time for you to get honest and simply see clearly (perceive perfection in all things.)

The cosmos and earthly delights cannot come from a random accident...........hence a creator.

But you have been trying to come to terms with the genesis story of the Bible....and have failed.

This is because the Bible account of creation is false.

The true creation story is found in the Vedas. ( the 18 volume "Srimad Bhagavatam" and translated from Sanskrit into English by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prubhupada)

Buy theses volumes and receive true knowledge instantly.

Oh but before you read.......... first make an honest place in your heart so you do not challenge every new idea with your big and wonderful academic brain.

Originally posted by Dasa
Stop wasting your brain power trying to impress everyone in this forum that you are an academic.

We know you are an academic...........so now is the time for you to get honest and simply see clearly (perceive perfection in all things.)

The cosmos and earthly delights cannot come from a random accident...........hence a creator.

But you have been trying ...[text shortened]... in your heart so you do not challenge every new idea with your big and wonderful academic brain.

Buy theses volumes and receive true knowledge instantly.

I'd have thought that to receive any knowledge from them reading them would be necessary and even C Hess is going to have trouble getting through an eighteen volume tome instantly.

Originally posted by Dasa
Oh but before you read.......... first make an honest place in your heart so you do not challenge every new idea with your big and wonderful academic brain.

sonship resorts to ~ more or less ~ this line of 'argument' from time to time. He likes to declare himself unimpressed with the cleverness of inconvenient questions that challenge his dogma and so absolve himself of onus to tackle what's actually being said.

As ever, Dasa, you are using words like "honest" and "dishonest" and "honestly" incorrectly.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So then I can assume JC's social security number was embossed on the cloth as well? Maybe his drivers license #, maybe some distinguishing tats?

Much better than that. His blood. 😏