Originally posted by amannion
However, a rational approach would seem to suggest that something is needed to 'seed' the universe.

But a logical one would not have that requirement.

[edit; and singluarity physics is quite beyond rationality.]

Originally posted by sonhouse
That's how I think of it, a setting of a local clock to zero. According to some TOE's, our universe is not the only one and there may even be a continuity of laws, slightly changing from universe to universe, like the conditions that caused our universe to erupt may have come from another universe that had slightly differant laws, speed of light slightly di ...[text shortened]... so we may yet be able to figure it all out. News at 11. Maybe 11 centuries but what the hey.

Yes, I'm of the same mind.
I know that it's our nature to look for cause and effect, and I know that this natural view of things needs to be completely rethought with quantum physics and the early universe, but it seems to make no sense that we could have an 'uncaused' event.
My guess is that there is probably something to the notion of a multiverse.

Originally posted by Kindred Spirit
Assertion: The existence of God is PROVABLE TODAY. Just as it was in Jesus' time...and even prior to his mission.

I have good reason to believe this is true.

Is there anyone who might be interested in exploring this critical topic?

All are welcome.

go 4 it you will find that God does exist

Originally posted by Jonathan1
go 4 it you will find that God does exist

Well that's sorted that one out then.

Thanks for your invaluable input, Jonathan1.

Originally posted by amannion
Yes, I'm of the same mind.
I know that it's our nature to look for cause and effect, and I know that this natural view of things needs to be completely rethought with quantum physics and the early universe, but it seems to make no sense that we could have an 'uncaused' event.
My guess is that there is probably something to the notion of a multiverse.

Then all you do is push the start further back, quite without evidence, and you haven't sorted out the fundamental "where did it all come from?", which is valid within a cause effect framework.

Of course, you understand, as you point out, I have long espoused the idea that even asking the question "where did it all come from?" is couched with assumptions, the first begin that there is a requirement for it all to come from something, which is an assumption which may not be fair or even sensible within a singularity, and which our brains are sadly ill equipped to answer since we have had no evolutionary need to consider things on this type of time-scale.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Then all you do is push the start further back, quite without evidence, and you haven't sorted out the fundamental "where did it all come from?", which is valid within a cause effect framework.

Of course, you understand, as you point out, I have long espoused the idea that even asking the question "where did it all come from?" is couched with assumpt ...[text shortened]... nswer since we have had no evolutionary need to consider things on this type of time-scale.

You're right on all counts.
I guess there's almost an inbuilt need to have everything work out nicely, hence the desire to explain the 'cause' behind all events. It sort of makes internal coherent sense to have a cause but of course, there need be no requirement that the universe makes any sort of sense to us in that way.
But it makes for interesting thought experiments and fascinating dialogues, don't you think?

Originally posted by amannion
You're right on all counts.
I guess there's almost an inbuilt need to have everything work out nicely, hence the desire to explain the 'cause' behind all events. It sort of makes internal coherent sense to have a cause but of course, there need be no requirement that the universe makes any sort of sense to us in that way.
But it makes for interesting thought experiments and fascinating dialogues, don't you think?

Oh, it makes for a fascinating dialogue all right. Provided that people bear in mind that they can only ever speculate and, that quite unlike anything else, the rules of the universe only apply within and not to the universe (as far as we know), rendering the whole thing little better than a guessing game from anyone's side.

Originally posted by Kindred Spirit
Assertion: The existence of God is PROVABLE TODAY. Just as it was in Jesus' time...and even prior to his mission.

I have good reason to believe this is true.

Is there anyone who might be interested in exploring this critical topic?

All are welcome.

Yeah man. You've nearly got me convinced.