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Originally posted by josephwIt's your delusion versus his josephw. Whose is better? You, alas, are not qualified to judge controlled as you are by the fancies of men long dead.
Logic dictates that creation is the evidence for a creator. Any thought contrary to that concept is evidenced by nothing, and is the evidence for delusion.
Originally posted by FMF
Try this then: That the universe - in some form or other - has always existed is determined by the evidence of all that exists. No such evidence exists to the contrary.
Where is your evidence that the above assertions are not true?
Thread conclusion:
Creation is evidence for the existence of Brahma Vishnu and Shiva. (Joe being unable to establish an exclusive link between creation and his preferred manifestation of the divine). Indeed, anyone not recognising this obvious link between the Hindu Gods of creation and the world around us is either lying or mentally deluded.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeA creator is real, and I agree with josephw on this point.
Thread conclusion:
Creation is evidence for the existence of Brahma Vishnu and Shiva. (Joe being unable to establish an exclusive link between creation and his preferred manifestation of the divine). Indeed, anyone not recognising this obvious link between the Hindu Gods of creation and the world around us is either lying or mentally deluded.
The identity and knowledge of this creator is a different matter altogether. Religion and theism may be up for debate, but a 'creator' should not be.
Originally posted by josephwCan you explain how I am supposed to go from "a creator exists" to "Jesus lives"? Surely "the evidence of all that exists" supports any religion that contends that "a creator exists"? How do you justify your assertion that the evidence you see [that a creator exists] validates the claims you make about Jesus?
On a personal level, yes.
Originally posted by josephwTry this then: That the universe - in some form or other - has always existed is determined by the evidence of all that exists. No such evidence exists to the contrary. Where is your evidence that the above assertions are not true?
That a creator exists is determined by the evidence of all that exists. No such evidence exists to the contrary.
Originally posted by FMFYou were a Christian.
Try this then: That the universe - in some form or other - has always existed is determined by the evidence of all that exists. No such evidence exists to the contrary. Where is your evidence that the above assertions are not true?
You know the truth.
Originally posted by chaney3This is not much a debating point is it? I don't agree with the first three words and you offer no argument to support it; and the last five words are blatantly untrue. So it sounds to me like the same clumsy babble you come out with when you are drunk. I suggest you step away from your PC and take a kip on the sofa.
You are wrong, and you know you are.
Originally posted by FMFYou are wrong FMF.
This is not much a debating point is it? I don't agree with the first three words and you offer no argument to support it; and the last five words are blatantly untrue. So it sounds to me like the same clumsy babble you come out with when you are drunk. I suggest you step away from your PC and take a kip on the sofa.
chaney3: You are wrong FMF.What, may I ask, is the point of you saying "So he is wrong" after he said to me "You are wrong FMF"? And if you don't see the point of chaney3 saying "You are wrong FMF", then what is the point of you saying to both me and chaney3 "So you're both wrong"?
Originally posted by Suzianne
So he is wrong.
But you believe what he believes, i.e. that no man can know God since He doesn't reveal Himself to us.
So you're both wrong.
What was your point again?
Originally posted by chaney3Do you also agree with Joseph that it's impossible for an honest and rational mind to refute the existence of a Creator? (Meaning an atheist is either a liar or mentally deficient). And do you also agree with Joseph that this shouldn't be taken by anybody as personally insulting?
A creator is real, and I agree with josephw on this point.
The identity and knowledge of this creator is a different matter altogether. Religion and theism may be up for debate, but a 'creator' should not be.