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Originally posted by josephwYour post can be taken different ways. Can you be more explicit? Exactly what are you saying? Exactly what do you think this verse is saying?
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [b]even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Did you miss this while reading your Bible? How can you stand being so narrow minded?[/b]
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you dismiss the epistles of Paul and others out of hand?
Your post can be taken different ways. Can you be more explicit? Exactly what are you saying? Exactly what do you think this verse is saying?
Does, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:, mean nothing to you?
Why do you continually assume that the words of Jesus means nothing to me?
And why does it appear to me that your scope of the value of the whole Bible is so narrowly limited?
And why do you continually fail to address questions asked of you for the purpose of clarification of any single,point?
Why is it that you seem to think that anything I or anyone says to you is an attack on you or what you believe? (Although it does get that way, but only because you appear to be on the defensive all the time, and make remarks that are frustrating to deal with.)
I'm not your enemy! For heaven's sake!
Originally posted by josephwAre you going to respond to the questions I just asked?
Do you dismiss the epistles of Paul and others out of hand?
Does, 2Ti 3:16 [b]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:, mean nothing to you?
Why do you continually assume that the words of Jesus means nothing to me?
And why does it appear to me ...[text shortened]... and make remarks that are frustrating to deal with.)
I'm not your enemy! For heaven's sake![/b]
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBut I could equally argue that there is nowhere where Jesus says "You know all that stuff about whoever believes on me will have eternal life and being saved by faith etc - you know I was just pulling your leg"
Like I've told you before, I have little interest in being lead around in circles like you're wont to do.
If you can show how the words of Jesus explicitly support your position, then just do so instead of your usual plethora of extrapolations and analogies.
I'm especially interested in where he says something to the effect of:
"You know all those ...[text shortened]... e I said that righteousness is required for salvation - well, I was just pulling your leg".
You see your problem is your argument is so narrow and badly concocted that I could easily come up witha counter argument using the same simplistic principles.
All I would have to do is ...
1) Select only passages where jesus refers to salvation via faith in him and believe in him leading to eternal life.
2)Quote them continuously in support of my position that it is belief that saves and argue as if Jesus never said anything else thus ignoring those other awkward passages or any other verses.
3) When challenged about 1 + 2 simply accuse that person of trying to distort and lie thus stalling and deflecting any serious debate of anything else.
4) Challenge anyone who challenged me asking them why they are scared of the fact that Jesus clearly and explicitly taught that salvation/ eternal life was to be gained by belief in him.
5)Assume randomly that those who were challenging me did not infact live by the Gospel of grace through faith and ask them why they believed in their own interpretations rather than the explicitly clear teachings of Jesus and did not follow what Jesus commanded.
Hey presto!!! , an instant ready meal theology complete with it's own inherent defence system. The great thing about the system is that it can used to support all sorts of positions. It's quite a recognisable system too and well used by the hard right fundies in the US. Very hard to challenge because no challenge can ever be interpreted as an actual challenge ( it's a lie of course) and backed up robustly by clear quotes from Jesus.
I could easily create such a mirror image position based on different theology and defend it in much the same way as you defend yours and there would not be much you could do about it. Nor could you argue that it was not explicitly supported by the teachings of jesus because I would have ready prepared cut and paste verses to quote in my defence.
Such a position would be equally as robust as yours especially if I clung to it with such rigid dogmatic tenacity and kept to the formula (steps 1-5) I would be able to swat away anything using such a system and even if I was wrong no-one could get past first base with me if I just stubbornly assumed that I must be right and you were a liar.
So , If I did this , how would you go about claiming that your position was superior to mine? You could not because you would only be using the same system as me and both systems would cancel each other out and defend themselves perfectly.
Of course , I would not choose to do such a thing because I would prefer to debate as a human being and think on my feet for myself. It would also be far too easy for me and would not appeal to my passion for delving deeper into the truth.
So what will your response be and which step in the system will you use ? Will it be step 1 or 3 maybe. Or perhaps you will revert to the default " the truth will make you free" mantra?
Originally posted by knightmeisterJesus explicitly teaches salvation through righteousness.
But I could equally argue that there is nowhere where Jesus says "You know all that stuff about whoever believes on me will have eternal life and being saved by faith etc - you know I was just pulling your leg"
You see your problem is your argument is so narrow and badly concocted that I could easily come up witha counter argument using the same s ...[text shortened]... maybe. Or perhaps you will revert to the default " the truth will make you free" mantra?
Jesus does not explicitly support your position. Your position can only be arrived at through extrapolation. Through extrapolation that is contrary to what He explicitly states.
Jesus explicitly states that His disciples follow His commandments. If you loved Jesus, you would keep His words. If you believed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you had faith in Jesus you would keep His words.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."
Jesus explicitly teaches salvation through righteousness.
Jesus does not explicitly support your position. Your position can only be arrived at through extrapolation. Through extrapolation that is contrary to what He explicitly states.
Jesus explicitly states that His disciples follow His commandments. If you loved Jesus, you would keep His words. ...[text shortened]... ed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you had faith in Jesus you would keep His words.
It is Paul, by the revelation he received from the Lord Jesus Christ, that teaches us HOW to attain the righteousness we need to be saved.
It is most unfortunate that you haven't learned this.
Originally posted by josephwThe words of Jesus tell us that righteousness is attained by following His commandments - by following the will of God.
[b]"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."
It is Paul, by the revelation he received from the Lord Jesus Christ, that teaches us HOW to attain the righteousness we need to be saved.
It is most unfortunate that you haven't learned this.[/b]
Evidently you believe that the words of Paul supercede the words of Jesus. Evidently you chose to follow Paul instead of Jesus.
Once again I ask you:
Is it your belief that Jesus was too obtuse to comprehend what Paul taught or simply wasn't in on the "secret"?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneMatthew
Take a look at the words attributed to Jesus.
5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
So we're to pull out our eyes if we should look at our neighbor's sexy wife when she bends over, is that right?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYou were saying that you didn't know how to separate the teachings of Jesus from the rest of the Bible. I suggested that you look at the words of Jesus. Perhaps I should have been more specific. Try to read the whole of the words attributed to Jesus putting together overarching themes. It'll help you to get a sense for what is literal and what isn't.
Matthew
5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one ...[text shortened]... out our eyes if we should look at our neighbor's sexy wife when she bends over, is that right?
Here's a place where they have been collected. I haven't gone through it all, but I have no reason to believe that it isn't what it says it is. Read the "Teachings and Parables" chapters.
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/index.html
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFirst of all I'm not saying that what I was suggesting IS my position but if it were I could easily support it with explicit things that Jesus said.
Jesus explicitly teaches salvation through righteousness.
Jesus does not explicitly support your position. Your position can only be arrived at through extrapolation. Through extrapolation that is contrary to what He explicitly states.
Jesus explicitly states that His disciples follow His commandments. If you loved Jesus, you would keep His words. ...[text shortened]... ed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you had faith in Jesus you would keep His words.
So let's play that game then...
I seem to remember Jesus saying something like....
"He who believes in me shall have eternal life"
So there you are ,a verse that explicitly support the position that belief and salvation are connected.
So what do you do now? Deny that Jesus said this? That would be interesting.
So some hot water added and Pot Noodle theology in 5 minutes. I have position that I could take that IS explicitly supported by Jesus' words and NOT through extrapolation. I could then say that your position of "salvation can only be gained through righteousness" is your extrapolation and directly contradictory to Jesus' explicit words about belief.
So basically you would be shafted. Hoisted by your own petard. You tell us that we should follow Jesus' explicit teachings and there you have it . Jesus explicitly states unequivocally that belief in him shall result in eternal life. What do you do now? Return to the system? That can't help you because it's the system I am using. You could maybe argue that I am taking a few statements of Jesus out of context but that would be tricky because that's not in the system and it would require you to do the same with your argument (unless you were playing with loaded dice of course).
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Originally posted by knightmeisterIf you believed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you followed His commandments, you would be righteous. If you were righteous, you would have salvation from sin.
First of all I'm not saying that what I was suggesting IS my position but if it were I could easily support it with explicit things that Jesus said.
So let's play that game then...
I seem to remember Jesus saying something like....
"He who believes in me shall have eternal life"
So there you are ,a verse that explicitly support the posi do the same with your argument (unless you were playing with loaded dice of course).
The above is consistent with word such as:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Etcera, etcetera, etcetera.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus said explicitly that eternal life is to be gained via belief in him
If you believed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you followed His commandments, you would be righteous. If you were righteous, you would have salvation from sin.
The above is consistent with word such as:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
" ...[text shortened]... ut he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Etcera, etcetera, etcetera.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies"
Seems pretty explicit to me.
Why are you scared of Jesus's explicit teachings? If you really believed in him you would follow him and have faith and break bread with other Christians as he commanded.
Why do you follow your own extrapolations and rationalisations. The truth will set you free.