Atheists and Believers

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

This is a pretty nice article about the things believers(i know the link says christians but it can apply to all non-atheist) and atheists(let's put agnostics in this bunch as well) can agree upon. To avoid the conflict we have in these forums, let's start by also noticing the things we have in common. The bullet points are:

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying

3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different

4. There Are Good People on Both Sides

5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them

6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy

7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too

8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid

9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table

10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

This is a pretty nice article about the things believers(i know the link says christians but it can apply to all non-atheist) and atheists(let's put agnostics in this bunch as well) can agree upon. To avoid the conflict we have in these forums, let's start by al ...[text shortened]... s Have Brought Good to the Table

10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

No, but the monkey hooting is annoying anyway.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

This is a pretty nice article about the things believers(i know the link says christians but it can apply to all non-atheist) and atheists(let's put agnostics in this bunch as well) can agree upon. To avoid the conflict we have in these forums, let's start by al ...[text shortened]... s Have Brought Good to the Table

10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

I disagree with #5.

I don't think the belief in christianity is legitimately offensive to atheists and I don't think the lack of belief in any god is legitimately offensive to any christian.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I disagree with #5.

I don't think the belief in christianity is legitimately offensive to atheists and I don't think the lack of belief in any god is legitimately offensive to any christian.

you didn't read the link, did you?

there is a certain context to it.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you didn't read the link, did you?

there is a certain context to it.

From the link the title of #5 is misleading and not the same as their "context".

What it should say in order to match the context they provide is:

5. You both can say stuff that you believe that offends the other.

The belief itself should not legitimately offend the other - it's the idiotic expression of it that legitmately would.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

This is a pretty nice article about the things believers(i know the link says christians but it can apply to all non-atheist) and atheists(let's put agnostics in this bunch as well) can agree upon. To avoid the conflict we have in these forums, let's start by al ...[text shortened]... s Have Brought Good to the Table

10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

Both side are filled with people, and you know what buggers they can be.
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you didn't read the link, did you?

there is a certain context to it.

The best thing about the article is the comments.

Those from Atheists saying "how dare you assume anything about me! you don't know me! You're an idiot for writing this crap!" and those from Christians saying "how dare you assume anything about me! you don't know me! You're an idiot for writing this crap!"

This just points out the truth of his statement #3.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
From the link the title of #5 is misleading and not the same as their "context".

What it should say in order to match the context they provide is:

5. You both can say stuff that you believe that offends the other.

The belief itself should not legitimately offend the other - it's the idiotic expression of it that legitmately would.

not one of your proudest moments. nazi belief is offensive to jews. is the holocaust (the implementation of that belief) more offensive? yes, among other things. they are however two different things: belief and the "expression of belief". a belief CAN be offensive by itself.


you are discussing semantics for the sake of arguiing and missing the point. read the damn link already and you will understand what the author is trying to say.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The best thing about the article is the comments.

Those from Atheists saying "how dare you assume anything about me! you don't know me! You're an idiot for writing this crap!" and those from Christians saying "how dare you assume anything about me! you don't know me! You're an idiot for writing this crap!"

This just points out the truth of his statement #3.

i do my best not to read the comments. i read the article and form my own opinion. the comments are most likely people that disagree with it and want to prove their superiority. nobody bothers to post "yes, nice article".

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
not one of your proudest moments. nazi belief is offensive to jews. is the holocaust (the implementation of that belief) more offensive? yes, among other things. they are however two different things: belief and the "expression of belief". a belief CAN be offensive by itself.


you are discussing semantics for the sake of arguiing and missing the point. read the damn link already and you will understand what the author is trying to say.

nazi belief is offensive to jews. is the holocaust (the implementation of that belief) more offensive?

Talk about not your proudest moments. You should be ashamed of yourself for the momeny you pressed post on this one.

What an idiotic analogy.

I did NOT say that someone's beliefs can't be offensive to someone else - I said that christian beliefs that atheists will go to hell are not legitimately offensive to atheists and vice versa. Now I didn't specify "christian" in my post, but I mistakenly thought you were aware of the context.

you are discussing semantics for the sake of arguiing and missing the point. read the damn link already and you will understand what the author is trying to say

WRONG. I did read the link after your first response to myself and I'm not discussing semantics at all. I haven't disputed the semantics of anything specific at all - you think that differentiating between beliefs and expression of those beliefs is merly an issue of semantics?!

You haven't even tried to understand what I'm saying and instead try to dismiss it without even asking a simple question.

Do you even intend to have a civil conversation?

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
nazi belief is offensive to jews. is the holocaust (the implementation of that belief) more offensive?

Talk about not your proudest moments. You should be ashamed of yourself for the momeny you pressed post on this one.

What an idiotic analogy.

I did NOT say that someone's beliefs can't be offensive to someone else - I said that christi out even asking a simple question.

Do you even intend to have a civil conversation?

this is the first time you actually explained what you are saying.



"The belief itself should not legitimately offend the other - it's the idiotic expression of it that legitmately would."

what would this suppose to mean other than what i understood? can you honestly say you don't let on to believe that beliefs aren't offensive until they manifest into offensive actions?
" I said that christian beliefs that atheists will go to hell are not legitimately offensive to atheists and vice versa" where the hell did you say that? and why not? and considering for a moment that you did(you didn't) what makes this point cool and intelligent? doesn't it lead to the conclusion that if you are right, neither should the jews be offended that nazis call them subhuman? as long as no death camps are involved?


EDIT: the link is an article about tolerance. and one of its points is the 5 you take so much issue with. 5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them should be changed to 5. You both can say stuff that you believe that offends the other. ? really? is that the grand contribution you wish to bring to this discussion? that you are not offended if a christian says you will go to hell regardless of your acomplishments? well some atheists do take offense. not to mention the fact the author doesn't discuss the fact whether the party is or not offended but rather if the words are offensive. there is a difference.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
this is the first time you actually explained what you are saying.



"The belief itself should not legitimately offend the other - it's the idiotic expression of it that legitmately would."

what would this suppose to mean other than what i understood? can you honestly say you don't let on to believe that beliefs aren't offensive until they manifes jews be offended that nazis call them subhuman? as long as no death camps are involved?

what would this suppose to mean other than what i understood?

Given the context, exactly what I later explained it to.

can you honestly say you don't let on to believe that beliefs aren't offensive until they manifest into offensive actions?


Yes. Beliefs as concepts can be offensive.

where the hell did you say that?

It was in the context of my post and the conversation. We were specifically talking about christians and atheists - not in general. You chose to ignore the context and expand what I said into something more general - something I did not do.

I do think a belief un-manifested in speech or action is irrelevant to anyone since no one would ever know about it. Beliefs when expressed as a concept (which is really what you are talking about) can be offensive.

The belief itself expressed is offensive and hence the belief can be offensive (I NEVER said a belief as a concept can not be offensive).

If the nazis never expressed their belief that jews are inferrior and never killed or opressed a single person then what would be so offensive about them? Consider that if they never expressed their belief in speech or in action then you would never know that they held that belief.

More specifically and relevant to this thread, a christian belief that I will go to hell because I don't believe in jesus isn't offensive since it's fiction to atheists. It's like saying that I believe a christian will go to willy wonka's chocolate factory when they die. How would that be inherrently offensive to a christian?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
EDIT: the link is an article about tolerance. and one of its points is the 5 you take so much issue with. 5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them should be changed to 5. You both can say stuff that you believe that offends the other. ? really? is that the grand contribution you wish to bring to this discussion? that you are not offended if ...[text shortened]... ther the party is or not offended but rather if the words are offensive. there is a difference.

You both can say stuff that you believe that offends the other. ? really? is that the grand contribution you wish to bring to this discussion?

As opposed to the grand contribution you are bringing to this discussion?

The idea that you can both express ideas that offends the other is at least as significant as the idea that you can both hold beliefs that offend the other.

that you are not offended if a christian says you will go to hell regardless of your acomplishments? well some atheists do take offense.

Well, some atheists get offended at things they shouldn't get offended about. Some christians also get offended at things they shouldn't get offended about.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
what would this suppose to mean other than what i understood?

Given the context, exactly what I later explained it to.

can you honestly say you don't let on to believe that beliefs aren't offensive until they manifest into offensive actions?


Yes. Beliefs as concepts can be offensive.

where the hell did you say that? ...[text shortened]... chocolate factory when they die. How would that be inherrently offensive to a christian?

ok so how about we let the correctness or incorrectness of your posts and context slide . you believe the meaning as you intended is offensive i belive it wasn't. not important.

instead let us focus on what you did mean. beliefs can be offensive by themselves without grousome events transpiring as a result. and yes, i do refer to expressed beliefs, obviously. no point in discussing the secret beliefs you never told anyone. this is the point we both agree on.

here comes tha snag in your argument.
"a christian belief that I will go to hell because I don't believe in jesus isn't offensive since it's fiction to atheists"
just because the recipient of the hate message is not offended because he "knows" the other is wrong doesn't mean other in his shoes wouldn't be. no jew ever thought they were indeed the inferior race. no jew thinks that now. the truth of the offense doesn't matter. most of the time you do not agree with the one offending you but you feel offended, or better said, the claim in question is offensive nonetheless.



i still believe you didn't read the link. or you skimmed it. otherwise you would have seen the examples given and why exactly atheist view is offensive to christians and vice - versa. offensive, not valid/invalid.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
You both can say stuff that you believe that offends the other. ? really? is that the grand contribution you wish to bring to this discussion?

As opposed to the grand contribution you are bringing to this discussion?

The idea that you can both express ideas that offends the other is at least as significant as the idea that you can both hold ...[text shortened]... offended about. Some christians also get offended at things they shouldn't get offended about.

i am the original poster. i presented the topic. anything else i posted is in response to (in my view) your flawed in pointless complaint. my contribution isn't in question here because i have not elaborated but merely pointed out your flawed reasoning. my contribution (or rather that of the one who wrote the article) remains unchanged.