Atoms as God

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
The fact can as well be that the universe created itself at the moment of BigBang,
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How could it create itself if it were not in existence ?[/b]

Tell me the answer of a similar question: Who created god?

Similar? Yes! Because if noone created god and he still exist (by your standards), then he must created himself. Like the universe. If not, who created him?

Do you know BigBang theory? Do you understand it? Not many creationists do. Do you really think you can understand the answer, even if I gave it to you?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Tell me the answer of a similar question: Who created god?

Similar? Yes! Because if noone created god and he still exist (by your standards), then he must created himself. Like the universe. If not, who created him?

Do you know BigBang theory? Do you understand it? Not many creationists do. Do you really think you can understand the answer, even if I gave it to you?

if you can understand it, why cant others?, you did not originate the theory, did you? then why are you pretending that others are incapable also of taking this second hand knowledge and assimilating it? Is the God of Scientific theory so high and mighty that his ways are unknowable, no, then what are you talking about, 'even if i give it to you', my goodness you're acting like you never received it yourself!

oh, and just for the record, no one created God, he has always existed, the same old argument of the watch and the watchmaker, where will it end, who can tell.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you can understand it, why cant others?, you did not originate the theory, did you? then why are you pretending that others are incapable also of taking this second hand knowledge and assimilating it? Is the God of Scientific theory so high and mighty that his ways are unknowable, no, then what are you talking about, 'even if i give it to you', m sted, the same old argument of the watch and the watchmaker, where will it end, who can tell.

I have never seen a fundamentalist christian that has understood the theory of BigBang yet. Are you an exception? If so - then you know what BigBang says about how the universe was created. It's fundamental.

Yes, I do know something about the theory of BigBang. I have a scientific education. Fundamentalist christians seldome have. Have you?

If you know that god always has been, then he was bored to death the first eons, not seeing anything, not hearing anything, not have any perception of anything. Bored I would say.
If you accept the idea that god has always been, then you have equally easy to understand that the unieverse has always been, don't you? That the universe had no beginning, nor will have any end, exactly as god himself?
If god came to being infinitl number of years b.C., then why not the same with Universe, came from nothing, I mean? Why not the one but not the other?
But this is not within the theory of BigBang, of course...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it you guys are not getting, i do not believe that the laws of Physics nor the creation of the universe has anything to do with 'luck', its you, who through you're adherence to the premise that God did not cause, create or design the universe must face, not the noble and virtuous theist. Let Einsteins name be praised forever and ever!😀

It was you that used the word 'luck' first. You argued that the current state of the universe implied one of two things:
1. Extremely lucky conditions.
2. A God or other entity ensuring the conditions were 'just right'.
Since I have shown that even without 2., 1. does not become a not a necessary conclusion, your argument fails.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I have never seen a fundamentalist christian that has understood the theory of BigBang yet. Are you an exception? If so - then you know what BigBang says about how the universe was created. It's fundamental.

Yes, I do know something about the theory of BigBang. I have a scientific education. Fundamentalist christians seldome have. Have you?

If you k Why not the one but not the other?
But this is not within the theory of BigBang, of course...

what is about God being outside of time you do not understand?

as for knowledge of the big bang, i could ask you the exact same question with regard to the Bible, do you have a knowledge of the Bible? no? for i have a Biblical education, fundamentalist 'scientists', seldom do, but do you see us waving it above us like a huge banner, guess what, i have a knowledge of the Bible, you dont, na na na na na! im the king of the castle and your a dirty wee rascal. absolutely not! if anyone in sincerity has asked us a question with regard to our knowledge we are more than willing to try to facilitate them, we certainly don't flaunt it like some huge ego trip, do we?

actually here is a Biblical and a scientific FACT,

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

you will notice the word, beginning, the Bible clearly identified more than three thousand years ago that the universe had a beginning, perhaps you can enlighten us to when this FACT was scientifically established! I want to hear you say it, when!

Originally posted by twhitehead
It was you that used the word 'luck' first. You argued that the current state of the universe implied one of two things:
1. Extremely lucky conditions.
2. A God or other entity ensuring the conditions were 'just right'.
Since I have shown that even without 2., 1. does not become a not a necessary conclusion, your argument fails.

you have unwittingly stumbled, upon the point that i was trying to make, obviously, unsuccessfully.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is about God being outside of time you do not understand?

as for knowledge of the big bang, i could ask you the exact same question with regard to the Bible, do you have a knowledge of the Bible? no? for i have a Biblical education, fundamentalist 'scientists', seldom do, but do you see us waving it above us like a huge banner, guess what, ...[text shortened]... ighten us to when this FACT was scientifically established! I want to hear you say it, when!

Now you prove to me the void between religion and science. You proved to me quite elegantly that religion and science cannot ever mix.

You cannot ever understand science, exactly like you tell me I would never understand religion. Here we agree completely. Exactly as you cannot ever know or are willing to understand the Veda's, and neither do I.

For your information - The bible doesn't anywhere state any scientific facts. It just shows what people at those times were thinking about nature. Somethings wrongly, sometimes rightly, but never scientifically.

And you will never understand the theory of BigBang. On this you have to believe me.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Now you prove to me the void between religion and science. You proved to me quite elegantly that religion and science cannot ever mix.

You cannot ever understand science, exactly like you tell me I would never understand religion. Here we agree completely. Exactly as you cannot ever know or are willing to understand the Veda's, and neither do I.

Fo cally.

And you will never understand the theory of BigBang. On this you have to believe me.

i have just given you a Biblical and a scientific fact, its incredulous that you cannot comprehend this, how simple must it get? what is it about it you do not understand? i still want to hear you say it, when did science establish that the universe had a beginning, when! nor do i believe that i cannot ever understand science, that my friend is a contemptible statement, utterly! are you saying that the universe did not have a beginning, as the bible clearly and unambiguously asserts? if so, then this is nothing more than unreasonableness and an unwilling prejudice to accept a simple truth!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have just given you a Biblical and a scientific fact, its incredulous that you cannot comprehend this, how simple must it get? what is it about it you do not understand? i still want to hear you say it, when did science establish that the universe had a beginning, when! nor do i believe that i cannot ever understand science, that my friend is a c ...[text shortened]... this is nothing more than unreasonableness and an unwilling prejudice to accept a simple truth!

You didn't give me any scientific facts. I cannot read any scientific facts. Nowhere.

If you persist thinking so, you have to repeat it once more.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You didn't give me any scientific facts. I cannot read any scientific facts. Nowhere.

If you persist thinking so, you have to repeat it once more.

i am sorry Fabian, i cannot make it any simpler - regards Robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry Fabian, i cannot make it any simpler - regards Robbie.

Then I have to assume that you actually think this is a scientific fact:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. - Genesis 1:1"
Then I understuand why I didn't find it. Because it's not a scientific fact. (Sorry if I smile a bit! 🙂 )

Do you think it's a scientific fact only because you found it in a book? Then we can prove evolution as easy: Read the book of Darwin! 😀

No, my friend, let's be serious. This is the christian fundamental method of proving things 'scientifically'. Therefore there really is a void between religion and science. The two cannot ever mix. The words of the bible is not science. Cannot ever be.

And this is why I think you will never understand the BigBang theory. Not unless you study it a little. Believe me, it's not that hard. But you actually have to open a book that is not black and has not thin pages.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Oh, you see him as some kind of god, whose words should be worshipped in some way? Like the gospel of scriabin or something?

I tell you, he is a mere human. Like you and me. But he has thinking capacities. And now he hit the head of the nail.

If you look up the actual Scriabin, you see that he was just a bit of a maniac.

I like his music, his poetry is disgusting and of no quality, and his mysticism is a crock.

But I wish I could feel the way he did.

He thought he had a direct line to the Great Mystery --

I think he had part of it -- you can hear it in some of his music.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he has no thinking capacities, why must you people confuse knowledge gleaned from others with thinking capacity. originality is thinking capacity my friend, originality! all else is mere opinion! 🙂

again, this problem with language, truth and meaning -- you don't really speak English, do you, Robbie?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
oh Scriabin my learned friend, if you had spent as much time as I in staring at these 64 squares, then you would be amazed at the utter futility of it!

its kind of like drinking a beer, you know your gonna have to run at least ten miles to run of the calories, as with chess, the amount of study required to make even 50 rating points is unbelieva ...[text shortened]... ve determined, but realities, therefore i do not think that you can dismiss it so readily.

my dear robbie, you babble.

you are so much less rigorous in your use of language than you need to be to even begin to be persuasive about that which you so clearly and ardently believe in.

you give the impression of someone like my namesake, intoxicated with an internal vision and merely making things up to sort of describe the equivalent of an opium dream.

it doesn't communicate -- it doesn't convince -- it can't refer or correpond to anything that is real, that exists, that is the case.

Because you cannot do more than say, in so many different ways, it is because I believe it is.

not enough

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
The fact can as well be that the universe created itself at the moment of BigBang,
=======================================

How could it create itself if it were not in existence ?[/b]

farther along, we'll understand it;
farther along, we'll understand why ...