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The most important aspect of you last two posts Son is Luke 16 19:31
"But if they do not hear the Scripture, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead"
I agree that that is the climax of the account.
I don't yet see what you think of this.
The thing is when people site this they often forget (easily done) that it is a parable, a story to illustrate a point, not an actual occurrence.
I have to take into account that in no other parable was someone mentioned by name - ie. "Lazarus". So I doubt that it is a parable.
But let's say it is a one of a kind parable of Christ, one in which someone's name (Lazarus) was mentioned. Then I ask:
Is it right for Christ to give a parable of something the details of which were impossible to occur?
Then another such account of someone in the realm of Hades (actually Sheol) being heard must also be impossible. I speak of the spirit of Samuel who forsaken king Saul was permitted to talk to in 1 Sam.28:3-25.
I have to say BOTH accounts of consciousness in Hades or Sheol are untrue literally. That's not easy.
Especially in First Samuel it would interrupt the flow of history in the account of the life of King Saul. A parable right in the midst of essentially a biography?
Along with Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man in Luke and the prophet Samuel in First Samuel I have another occurrence:
The souls crying out underneath the altar (underneath the earth apparently) in Revelation 6:9-11
"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, EVEN AS THEY WERE, is completed." (Rev. 6:9-11 RcV my bolding)
You see we have a number of places in the revelation of the Bible where the veil concealing the realm of the dead is briefly opened to us. It is not easy for me to say "Well, they are ALL parables."
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We already know that nobody in Hades can be alive as Psalm 146:4 makes it clear that
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (King James) - sorry about the old style language but I think that it's fathomable.
Sure Psalm 146:4 contributes to my musings.
But I also have to consider the Apostle Paul who had extensive revelation of the places in existence. Now he said for him to depart physical life was for him to be with Christ. ( I didn't say in Heaven. But I do say "with Christ". )
"For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
But if I am to live in the flesh, if this to me is fruit for my work, then I do not know what I will choose. But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to DEPART and be with Christ, for this is far better;
But to remain in the flesh is more necessary for your sake." (Phil. 1:21-24)
1.) Paul said to DIE was gain to him. That does not sound like oblivion
2.) He was alive "with Christ" but knew he would relatively be MORE "with Christ" should he physically die. That does not sound like oblivion. It sounds something like Lazarus going to a comfortable place in Hades as Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16. Or it sounds like he expected that if he died he would be like Samuel the prophet resting in that realm.
3.) He was hard pressed to remain alive in the flesh or out of the flesh be expired and "with Christ" to a greater degree. This doesn't sound like oblivion.
Would the apostle say to be non-existent in oblivion is to be with Christ in a more desirable way?
The bible makes it clear that there is no thought process after death, and it is as though you are sleeping
Sleep is rest. And the prophet Samuel said that he was in Hades undisturbed resting.
"And the woman said to Saul, I see some divine being coming up out of the earth.
And he said to her, What is his appearance? And she said, An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a cloak. Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, . . . And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you DISTURED me by bringing me up?" (See 1 Sam. 28:13-14)
Not only was Samuel in that realm conscious of his restful and undisturbed state. But he indicates at least in a similar situation King Saul will find himself and his sons will be with him too.
"And Jehovah will also give Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me; . . . " (v.19)
The aroused deceased prophet (his non-physical part) says "YOU and YOUR SONS will be with ME" [my bold].
I have to take all this in consideration along with your thoughts on Psalm 146.4.
I have another point but that's enough for this post.
@sonship
May I ask again if you are a troll pretending to be a Christian?
Do you believe that you live in Christ, and that Christ lives in you and is transforming you, but only with your consent?
If it's easier for you to bury your head in verbiage and spout Scripture like someone tossing Bibles and commentaries into a woodchipper -- okay, maybe some of us could probably understand that while also trying to keep a safe distance.
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The most important aspect of you last two posts Son is Luke 16 19:31
The thing is when people site this they often forget (easily done) that it is a parable, a story to illustrate a point, not an actual occurrence. We already know that nobody in Hades can be alive as Psalm 146:4 makes it clear that
I would like to think as the Bereans, you and I are as nobly as we can, examining these things with the Scriptures to see if they are so.
Now, Psalm 146:4 has its place in the progressive revelation of God.
But Jesus on the cross told the thief who was dying with Him there -
"And he said, Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)
Did you notice Jesus didn't say they both would be obliviously non-existent.
Jesus didn't say that on that day they would be together - in the state as describes in Psalm 146.4 as in non-existence - oblivion.
Would Jesus describe oblivion as "Paradise"?
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The thing is when people site this they often forget (easily done) that it is a parable, a story to illustrate a point, not an actual occurrence. We already know that nobody in Hades can be alive as Psalm 146:4 makes it clear that . . .
We know on THAT day that Jesus died, He went to "the lower parts of the earth."
" Now this, He ascended, what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? " (Eph. 4:9)
During the three days of Jesus' death He went to the lower parts of the earth.
He did not spend three days in Heaven. He spent three days "in the heart of the earth".
"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matt. 12:40)
Jesus and the believing and saved thief were in a pleasant section together on the day Jesus died. Jesus in His immaterial state went other chambers of that realm.
The point is that it was not JUST Jesus but the other man, the believing thief WITH Him.
Don't you have to think about this when factoring in Psalm 146:4?
God did not abandon the soul of Jesus in Hades.
"Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You permit Your Holy One to see corruption." (Acts 2:27)
During the three days starting with "Today . . ." when He and the thief were crucified. His soul was in Hades. The thief was WITH Him there in Paradise.
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@fmf saidMm. But in that case probably not intentionally toxic. Sometimes we have to be patient with each other when one or the other displays surprising manners.
I don't think sonship is a fraudster. What I do think, though, is that his limited interpersonal skills mean he is out of his depth as a self-appointed "preacher" and that his intense levels of sincerity and certainty - and pridefulness - make him toxic on occasions.
@kevin-eleven saidGrown people are personally responsible for their temper tantrums, what they do when they are intoxicated, and how they behave when they cannot process disagreement. sonship is intentionally toxic on a regular basis, more so in the last few years than he was for many years before that.
Mm. But in that case probably not intentionally toxic.