1. Joined
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    06 Apr '07 02:23
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that have had an experienced with God through faith to see a world full of people that haven't had that experience. Think of how heartbreaking it must be to listen to people say "there is no God" when we have a very real spiritual union with the one that made us.
    Of course, you haven't had that experience, and everything you see and hear and have learned convinces you that there is no God. You only believe what you know through your physical senses.
    There IS more to know than just what your senses tell you.
    The question is not "where's the evidence", but HOW can I know that there is something beyond what my physical senses tell me?

    I hesitate to start this thread because I know full well that the prevailing thought and philosophy of this world is so deeply ingrained in your mind. You have it in your mind that life on this planet came about by chance. You have volumes of evidence. You are fully convinced. I don't know what can change your mind. I know it won't be me.

    So don't think that I'm trying to "prove" anything because I'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
  2. Joined
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    06 Apr '07 02:26
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha ...[text shortened]... 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    more of the same
  3. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    06 Apr '07 02:29
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha ...[text shortened]... 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    In one of his essays Mark Twain compared the complete age of the universe to the height of the Eiffel Tower, and the history of the human race to the thickness of the paint on top of the flagpole on top of the tower. Thinking that we humans are the end point and climax of creation is rather like thinking that the Eiffel Tower exists for the sake of that layer of paint.
  4. Joined
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    06 Apr '07 02:30
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    In one of his essays Mark Twain compared the complete age of the universe to the height of the Eiffel Tower, and the history of the human race to the thickness of the paint on top of the flagpole on top of the tower. Thinking that we humans are the end point and climax of creation is rather like thinking that the Eiffel Tower exists for the sake of that layer of paint.
    exactly that is why in the other thread i say your purpose is to reproduce and we do not have any greater meaning in life than any other animal; IF you do not believe that God created animals for us like the bible says
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    06 Apr '07 06:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha ...[text shortened]... 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

    Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
  6. Joined
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    06 Apr '07 17:051 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    Yesterday I had an amazing, transcendent experience in which the truth of the reality of the invisible pink unicorn was revealed to me.

    Imagine how it must feel to have the Truth revealed to yourself at last, as it was to me, to truly comprehend the existence of a unicorn that is both invisible and pink. It saddens me that most people cannot understand the amazing spiritual union I experienced.

    If you had had the same experience, you too would be convinced. It is heartbreaking to me to hear people say that an invisiblie pink unicorn is ridiculous, relying on their senses and not their spiritual intuition, when I have had a very real spiritual union with it.
  7. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    06 Apr '07 19:47
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha ...[text shortened]... 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    Good for you.

    Now: how does your experience confirm or falsify any coherent assertion as to the nature or attributes of God, his plan for creation, or his moral edicts?

    If so, why?
  8. Standard memberNemesio
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    07 Apr '07 23:15
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha ...[text shortened]... 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    How do you reconcile this sentiment with those of us with a prayer life
    (we who strive towards an understanding of the Divine and how
    He-She-It works His/Her/Its way through us) and find that your belief
    system is absolutely exclusive of any cogent understanding of the Divine?

    I believe in spiritual union and communion. I believe in introspection,
    study of Scripture (of all sorts), prayer, and living a life of compassion
    and charity. I strive to see the Divine in my neighbor -- human and
    otherwise -- and treat them as lovingly as my frail and flawed ability
    permits. I strive (and fail) to make my every act one of prayerful
    consideration.

    I also reject Biblical inerrancy as idolatry, as placing limits upon the
    Divine. I reject the idea that the entire contents of the Bible are
    reflections of the Divine (e.g., St Paul's misogyny). I reject the idea
    that any one church tradition can possibly be wholly correct and free of
    political motivation and self preservation. I reject that the Divine can
    only be known in the perverse ways laid out by the sorts of misreadings
    of the Bible which you engage in.

    How do you negotiate this? How can you say that your experience is
    'more pure' or 'more holy' or 'more inspired' than mine? How can you
    blithely reject my communion with the Divine as the work of the Devil
    all the while believing that yours is a True one? How can you
    reasonably find that the experiences you have beyond what your
    senses tell you are somehow 'more Divine' than the ones I (or anyone) has?

    Nemesio
  9. Joined
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    08 Apr '07 00:57
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    How do you reconcile this sentiment with those of us with a prayer life
    (we who strive towards an understanding of the Divine and how
    He-She-It works His/Her/Its way through us) and find that your belief
    system is absolutely exclusive of any cogent understanding of the Divine?

    I believe in spiritual union and communion. I believe in introspection,
    s ...[text shortened]...
    senses tell you are somehow 'more Divine' than the ones I (or anyone) has?

    Nemesio
    My comments were directed to the atheist.

    But to you I say; Let no currupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemtion.
    Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
    And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
    Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children:
    And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Ephesians 4:29-5:2
  10. Joined
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    08 Apr '07 07:58
    Originally posted by josephw
    you only believe in what your physical senses tell you, you dismiss the spiritual as fantasy. You say that those of us that believe in God and claim to have a relationship with him are delusional or at least fooling ourselves. You think we believe in a God invented by our primitive ancestors.
    Imagine for a moment what it must be like for those of us that ha ...[text shortened]... 'm not.
    I just had a few minutes and a few thoughts to share.
    So bring it on! 😳
    Umm... so what exactly is your point?
  11. Joined
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    08 Apr '07 13:32
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Umm... so what exactly is your point?
    I guess I was suggesting that to deny the existence of God based on the lack of sensory evidence shouldn't be a basis for excluding the possibility that knowledge of the existence of God isn't beyond our grasp. In other words the knowledge of the existence of God is accessed by other means.
    At this point I'm not sure how to describe just how that works. It seems it would suggest we have another faculty which is designed to perform that function.
  12. Standard memberNemesio
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    09 Apr '07 04:54
    Originally posted by josephw
    I guess I was suggesting that to deny the existence of God based on the lack of sensory evidence shouldn't be a basis for excluding the possibility that knowledge of the existence of God isn't beyond our grasp. In other words the knowledge of the existence of God is accessed by other means.
    At this point I'm not sure how to describe just how that works. It seems it would suggest we have another faculty which is designed to perform that function.
    Fair enough. Let's say we have a 'sixth sense,' a 'spiritual ear,' or something. Let's say that you
    'hear' God with this 'ear' and hear Him say, 'Gay marriage is a blight upon humanity.' Let's say
    gay couple 'X+Y' also use their 'ears' and hear 'I, God, bless your union' or 'The purity of your love
    glorifies my Name by example.'

    How do you negotiate this? How do you insist that their 'spiritual ear' is attuned to the speech of
    the Devil and that yours 'hears' the message of God?

    Nemesio
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    09 Apr '07 06:53
    Originally posted by josephw
    I guess I was suggesting that to deny the existence of God based on the lack of sensory evidence shouldn't be a basis for excluding the possibility that knowledge of the existence of God isn't beyond our grasp. In other words the knowledge of the existence of God is accessed by other means.
    At this point I'm not sure how to describe just how that works. It seems it would suggest we have another faculty which is designed to perform that function.
    When you do figure out a way to describe this production mechanism for theistic belief, please also include a discussion related to justification. After all, you claim that it constitutes knowledge.
  14. Joined
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    09 Apr '07 06:561 edit
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Fair enough. Let's say we have a 'sixth sense,' a 'spiritual ear,' or something. Let's say that you
    'hear' God with this 'ear' and hear Him say, 'Gay marriage is a blight upon humanity.' Let's say
    gay couple 'X+Y' also use their 'ears' and hear 'I, God, bless your union' or 'The purity of your love
    glorifies my Name by example.'

    How do you negotiate ech of
    the Devil and that yours 'hears' the message of God?

    Nemesio
    This example should be apt since josephw is a homophobic bigot. (He thinks it is an "obimination".)
  15. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    09 Apr '07 15:47
    Originally posted by josephw
    I guess I was suggesting that to deny the existence of God based on the lack of sensory evidence shouldn't be a basis for excluding the possibility that knowledge of the existence of God isn't beyond our grasp. In other words the knowledge of the existence of God is accessed by other means.
    At this point I'm not sure how to describe just how that works. It seems it would suggest we have another faculty which is designed to perform that function.
    With the other senses comes the possibility of objectively testing their accuracy.

    How would you propose to objectively test the accuracy of your sixth sense of God?

    If you can't objectively test it, how apt is the analogy to the other senses?

    Or suppose my metaphysical sixth sense suggests to me there is no God. Should I claim you don't possess it because you don't share my intuition?
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