1. Copenhagen
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    29 May '05 21:14
    According to the Bible, beetles are a “kind”. There are over 400,000 known beetles (plus many unknown) in the entire world. If the flood occurred 4,400 years ago, then every year 100 new species of beetles would have evolved from the two original parents on the ark. Therefore, every single week roughly two new beetles are produced. How can it be explained?
  2. Joined
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    29 May '05 22:15
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    According to the Bible, beetles are a “kind”. There are over 400,000 known beetles (plus many unknown) in the entire world. If the flood occurred 4,400 years ago, then every year 100 new species of beetles would have evolved from the two original parents on the ark. Therefore, every single week roughly two new beetles are produced. How can it be explained?
    Genesis 1
    20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

    24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.


    So....where does it say that beetles are a kind? Anyway...

    Let's assume, first of all, that God created enough beetles on the beetle day, to do all the beetle work that beetles are meant to do (whatever that is). There may have been many varieties right off the bat. But when it came time to preserve them through the flood, I guess we can say that one pair was on the ark. Then, yes, through the incredible design of genetic variation, with literally millions, if not billions, of individual 'couples' (for lack of a less anthopomorphic term) reproducing as often as bugs do, all of the marvelous varieties have been produced! And to think that all the information needed for all of those varieties was present in those two lucky ark-riding lovebugs!

  3. Standard memberColetti
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    30 May '05 00:35
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    According to the Bible, beetles are a “kind”. There are over 400,000 known beetles (plus many unknown) in the entire world. If the flood occurred 4,400 years ago, then every year 100 new species of beetles would have evolved from the two original parents on the ark. Therefore, every single week roughly two new beetles are produced. How can it be explained?
    Beetles are a kind? That's a new one on me. Where did you get your info?
  4. Standard membertelerion
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    30 May '05 01:22
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    According to the Bible, beetles are a “kind”. There are over 400,000 known beetles (plus many unknown) in the entire world. If the flood occurred 4,400 years ago, then every year 100 new species of beetles would have evolved from the two original parents on the ark. Therefore, every single week roughly two new beetles are produced. How can it be explained?
    Nicky everything is "new" to Coletti on this subject. Your cannot argue against an a priori "fact." Nothing will make Coletti doubt his position on this matter. Just like KJ he has no interest in learning anything new on this matter. He only wishes to cloud discussion to make everyone as ignorant of the matter as he is.
  5. Not Kansas
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    30 May '05 01:26
    Originally posted by telerion
    Nicky everything is "new" to Coletti on this subject. Your cannot argue against an a priori "fact." Nothing will make Coletti doubt his position on this matter. Just like KJ he has no interest in learning anything new on this matter. He only wishes to cloud discussion to make everyone as ignorant of the matter as he is.
    Calvinist?
  6. Shetland Primary
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    30 May '05 12:17
    Originally posted by telerion
    Nicky everything is "new" to Coletti on this subject. Your cannot argue against an a priori "fact." Nothing will make Coletti doubt his position on this matter. Just like KJ he has no interest in learning anything new on this matter. He only wishes to cloud discussion to make everyone as ignorant of the matter as he is.
    So basically you're the wise guy and everybody else is stupid?

  7. Copenhagen
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    30 May '05 12:32
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Beetles are a kind? That's a new one on me. Where did you get your info?
    In genesis it says that Noah took a pair of each kind of animal. Are you suggesting that he brought along 800.000 beetles?
  8. Shetland Primary
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    30 May '05 12:391 edit
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    In genesis it says that Noah took a pair of each kind of animal. Are you suggesting that he brought along 800.000 beetles?
    No. He only took two beetles. Have you ever heard of variations within a kind? The 800,000 variations of beetles there are today are still beetles, not?
  9. Copenhagen
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    30 May '05 12:50
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    No. He only took two beetles. Have you ever heard of variations within a kind? The 800,000 variations of beetles there are today are still beetles, not?
    So the two beetles have evovled into present days 400.000 kinds of different beetles? That is one massive microevolution, almost two new species every week!
  10. Shetland Primary
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    30 May '05 13:22
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    So the two beetles have evovled into present days 400.000 kinds of different beetles? That is one massive microevolution, almost two new species every week!
    O.K. Maybe I spoke too fast. Let me re-phrase myself. I was not there, so I don't know for sure. Do you have any problem with 800,000 beetles on Noah's ark?
  11. Copenhagen
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    30 May '05 13:44
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    O.K. Maybe I spoke too fast. Let me re-phrase myself. I was not there, so I don't know for sure. Do you have any problem with 800,000 beetles on Noah's ark?
    Sure I have a problem with that. Beetles don't travel well over long distances, so Noah needed to cellect them. How did Noah collect 400,000 different kinds of beetles from all over the world? And all the other insects as well...
  12. Joined
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    30 May '05 14:03
    It isn't microevolution - it is macroevolution.

    Beetles represent an order of the insect class. There are eight *families* of beetles. It is quite hillarious to see Creationists unwittingly admitting not only evolution above the species level, but also evolution above family level.

    I don't think they realise how different various beetles are. For example most bettles lay eggs, but some beetles give birth to live young. So the Creationists here are saying that one of these reproduction types can evolve from the other.

    Some beetles eat plants, others scavenge dead insects, some are parasitic. So the Creationists are saying that at lease some of these different feeding habits, and the systems to support them evolved.

    From here: http://www.ivyhall.district96.k12.il.us/4th/kkhp/1insects/beetles.html

    A unique form of predation among beetles is present with larvae of tiger beetles. Most beetles are active hunters of prey, but tiger beetle larvae, also known as "chicken chokers," wait in burrows in the ground. These larvae have a large bump on their backs that help them hold their bodies in the burrow. When an insect walks over their camouflaged heads, they grab the prey with long mandibles.

    The Creationists have unwittingly claimed such a system and behaviour could have evolved.

    Here is another one from the same site:

    Larvae of long-horned beetles (family Cerambycidae) and metallic wood-boring beetles (family Buprestidae) bore in the wood of shrubs and trees, especially those that are dying or dead. The female twig-girdler, a kind of long-horned beetle, lays an egg at the end of a branch on a living tree. Then, the female chews, or girdles, the stem to cut off the water supply. The tip of the branch dies and usually falls to the ground. The larva of the twig-girdler then feeds inside the dead branch. Metallic wood-borers are known also as jewel beetles.

    And here is a table comparing different families of beetles and the differences between them: http://tolweb.org/accessory/Beetle_Suborders?acc_id=422

    It is interesting to note that some beetles are more genetically different from each other than humans and chimpanzees are different from each other.

    And the tactic of saying "they are all just beetles" is ridiculous given the difference between beetles. Why stop at "just beetles"? Why don't we go up a level to the Subclass of winged insects? We could say Noah had a pair of winged insects on the arc and all the dragonflies,beetles, wasps and flies are just variation of that original kind. A beetle evolves into a wasp? No problem! It is still a winged insect. Microevolution.

    Why not go up some more steps to the level of the phylum of Arthropods. We could say Noah had a pair of Arthropods on board which microevolved into spiders, insects, and centipedes. An insect evolves into a spider? No problem! It is still an arthropod. Microevolution.

    Perhaps we could go all the way up to the animal kingdom and claim that Noah had a pair of animals on the arc. All animals around today are variations of that original animal kind. A doglike creature evolves into a bear? No problem! It is still just an animal. Microevolution!

    It's all just being made up as they go along. Creationists have no idea where this mythical evolution barrier exists. Is it at the species level? The genus level? The family level? They don't know. I can imagine if someone had earlier suggested that weevils could evolve into fireflies (both types of beetle), the Creationists wouldn't be having any of it.
  13. Shetland Primary
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    30 May '05 14:04
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    Sure I have a problem with that. Beetles don't travel well over long distances, so Noah needed to cellect them. How did Noah collect 400,000 different kinds of beetles from all over the world? And all the other insects as well...
    Well, this site sums it up pretty well:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i2/animals.asp
  14. Copenhagen
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    30 May '05 14:13
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Well, this site sums it up pretty well:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i2/animals.asp
    The site talks about 16,000 animals, however I am talking about 800,000 beetles. Can you see the difference? Please explain that!
  15. Joined
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    30 May '05 14:13
    Noah did not need to take plants either—many could have survived as seeds, and others could have survived on floating mats of vegetation. Many insects and other invertebrates were small enough to have survived on these mats as well.

    Many insects have a generation time of one year. Many insects require dead flesh not only to eat but also to lay their eggs in. If they can't do this there will be no next generation for them and they will go extinct. I suggest AiG perform experiments to see just how many insect species can survive for a year without food.

    But I don't understand AiG at all. There is all this magic going on in the Bible. Magic floods, magic creation. Why not just say God put all the insects in a magic box and then let them out again after the flood? Why even bother trying to rationalise a story in a book which has another story about talking snakes? It's not like AiG doesn't believe in miracles. Quite clearly they are not just defending their own faith, they are trying to convert others whom they think will only accept scientific rational explainations.
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