Belief Wrestling vs. Certitude

@philokalia said
I think it is actually the case that it is called as such because nobody speaks it anymore in daily life. It has less to do with some concept of change.

Conceiving language based around whether or not they change is not the best metric.

Please explain how an unchanging language can possibly be considered "alive".

@petewxyz said
Paradox of the OP is that there is nothing in it I want to wrestle with, I feel I can completely agree.

So if you apply the Zen idea that you never arrive at truth and whenever you have a thesis look for the antithesis then try and make your next thesis the middle ground where do you go next in that infinite journey?

I suppose you would have to say that if you feel tha ...[text shortened]... gle doctrine? How do you avoid that stance pushing things towards division and entrenched positions?

I have not heard of that Zen idea before. Let me think about that some more.

My OP might well cause some conflict with certain people. I do want to provoke thoughtful responses. I try to discuss differences in a respectful way. On the flip side, I try to welcome good challenges from others as an opportunity to refine or correct my own thinking. All of this, I see as healthy overall.

@secondson said
If I were to say something similar I think it might sound more like, I am 100% certain that what the Bible teaches is true, but there is still much I don't fully

RHP keeps truncating the word "understand" from the quoted bit of your post. It won't let me add it back either.

I read that statement and it sounds much the same as what galvo said. How can you be 100% sure an entire book is true, when self-admittedly, there is much you do not understand? That seems contradictory.

@bigdoggproblem said
Galveston said, in another thread, something to the effect of: I am 100% certain of my beliefs; there are no mysteries or confusions.

What an impoverished approach to Spirituality!

Basically, you're done learning and growing. There are no new insights to glean. No further enlightenment to be had. It's actually quite sad, from my point of view.

A "dead" languag ...[text shortened]... alvo out, for there are several others who are just as certain that they know "The Truth" as he is.)

Nobody knows 100%

The Bible even says the hidden things belong to the Lord.

@bigdoggproblem said
I have not heard of that Zen idea before. Let me think about that some more.

My OP might well cause some conflict with certain people. I do want to provoke thoughtful responses. I try to discuss differences in a respectful way. On the flip side, I try to welcome good challenges from others as an opportunity to refine or correct my own thinking. All of this, I see as healthy overall.

If you want more about the Zen idea I first encountered it because it was used by Marsha Linehan in the creation of Dialectical Behaviour Therapy; seeing that journey as part of a route towards better emotional regulation.

@bigdoggproblem said
How can you be 100% sure an entire book is true, when self-admittedly, there is much you do not understand? That seems contradictory.

For what it's worth, here's my reply.

I know The Book. It's content. Pretty well. Where you and I part company is with regards to its author and supernatural attributes. Understanding the application of its precepts and truths is a life long process, and no one can live long enough to exhaust the wisdom that comes from reading it. Especially for the one that is indwelt by the spirit of God.

I know you question the validity of that, but there's no contradiction in believing the Word of God is infallible, inerrant and inspired, and not knowing or understanding its full magnitude and effects on the believer.

Just as it is with the study of any other discipline one never stops growing and learning something new.

When I say "I don't understand" much, I mean there's more for me to learn.

-Removed-

It is possible to admit that people are wiser than yourself, right? So, for instance, I know that, say, God or St. Paul is wiser than I am, and so I accept their words and moral judgments as being above that of my own.

However, there is still a lot of room for my own personal improvement. I can grow in my relationship to these truths. I can also learn why and how they are true, and how to properly interpret them.

-Removed-

As I said. You're overly concerned about thumbs. Little cry-baby.

-Removed-

Oh dear, more thumb posts. Are you obsessed?

-Removed-

Who could ever have guessed that you lack humility, grace and long-suffering? 🧐

@bigdoggproblem said
Galveston said, in another thread, something to the effect of: I am 100% certain of my beliefs; there are no mysteries or confusions.

What an impoverished approach to Spirituality!

Basically, you're done learning and growing. There are no new insights to glean. No further enlightenment to be had. It's actually quite sad, from my point of view.

A "dead" languag ...[text shortened]... alvo out, for there are several others who are just as certain that they know "The Truth" as he is.)

You make some great points. I used to be in Galveston’s boat where I was 100% sure of my beliefs. So I have an understanding why he behaves the way he does. Water can eventually crack concrete if it continues dripping on the same spot. Discussions such as these should encourage everyone to questions their beliefs. I can truly say my perspectives have changed on many issues after I started questioning my own beliefs. That is indeed a healthy practice. That said, if spiritual truth is relative there is no real point in doing so because regardless of where your beliefs end up you will be no better off
than you were before. As long as you keep on searching you will eventually find the truth. If you do so with all your heart. Never stop searching.