Originally posted by whodey But on some level you are telling yourself that you believe you will be better off if you steal the money even though you believe it is wrong. For such a person, the belief that you will come out on top in the end is the belief that drives you whether you recognize it as such or not.
a system of beliefs is not something you can change at will. you cannot stop being a christian to steal something and be a christian the next morning. what you are talking about are wants and desires. while beliefs do not change very often, wants and desires do, depending on sitautions and overriding beliefs. how can a system of belief be more important than the actual action when so many things influence actions and ultimately, the action is what affects the world. not an abstract belief you never acted upon.
Originally posted by Zahlanzi i am having trouble understanding the words "those that didn't hear the word of jesus will be given the chance to accept him"
So lets see if i got it right. The muslims, the jews, the atheists etc who lived great lives will be cast down in a lake of fire for having a TV, listening to jerry falwell talk about jesus and how gays will be thrown in hell (and ...[text shortened]... me? I am surprised that a character like you is allowed on the computer without supervision
I'm surprised that you even know how to use a computer. Yo, I didn't make the laws; go take it up with God.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Its always useful to be able to provide verses for Biblical statements you make. Otherwise nobody will take you seriously. Too late now ..🙂
Get off your lazy haunches and look it up yourself. I already know what it says. Do you want me to spoon-feed you?
Originally posted by Zahlanzi wrong.
that is the dystoniac doctrine. a doctrine that, to quote the 13th apostle, "takes god as a burden instead of a blessing"
you will die and go to hell if you don't believe in jesus. you will die and go to hell if you are a protestant and not a catholic. you will die and go to hell if you eat pork on fridays. you will die and go to hell if you a ...[text shortened]... would not throw away the whole bag, because the yellow and the greens are quite delicious.
Whatever, dude...you're whacked....I don't care what you say, you cannot change the truth, much less accept it. You will find out one day.
Originally posted by buckky You are the one that cannot except the truth. The truth is the Bible is just another religious book with many insane things within it. The truth is you have fallen prey to the same kind of thinking that the KKK has. If you are not white you must be some kind of animal. You think that if you are not a Christian you must be in cahoots with Satan. Thats the sick ...[text shortened]... ent for not seeing something a certain way. Very evil my friend. You need to get right with God.
Learn the difference between the words 'except' and 'accept'. You simply cannot handle the truth...whatever.
Originally posted by buckky What I want is some kind of sanity. What you believe is insane, and devoid of even everyday common goodness The average man has more compassion towards others than what you claim the Creator of the universe has. A mean spirited God is not my cup of tea. Sorry but that's my problem. The angry God idea is a primitive and dangerous concept.
Well, enjoy a cup of 'can't handle the truth' because that's all you will get.
Originally posted by twhitehead I am not sure how much what you believe influences how you live. I certainly know they are not equivalent.
Do you believe that lying is wrong?
Have you knowingly lied whilst still maintaining this belief?
Have you done other things you believed to be wrong?
Also your argument ignores the question of which is more important, faith or works. If someon ...[text shortened]... that many people claiming to be theists are actually agnostics playing a 'just in case' game.
I would contend that knowing something is wrong and doing it anyway does not exclude the possibility that there lies within you another belief that even though you have been told its wrong and may even believe it yourself, you do it anyway for various reasons. In a way, there is a weighing of beliefs, if you will, in which you may believe that doing the wrong thing will be the most beneficial thing for you.
I don't think my argument ignores the faith vs works issue because if you believe something the works will naturally flow from that belief. They simply go hand in hand. However, if other beliefs super impose themselves to snuff out that belief good works may not necessarily follow.
Our internal compass is just that, a moral compass, however, at times we may think we know better than the compass as we slide it into our pockets and do our "own thing" to try and benefit ourselves in various ways.
Originally posted by Zahlanzi a system of beliefs is not something you can change at will. you cannot stop being a christian to steal something and be a christian the next morning. what you are talking about are wants and desires. while beliefs do not change very often, wants and desires do, depending on sitautions and overriding beliefs. how can a system of belief be more important tha ...[text shortened]... d ultimately, the action is what affects the world. not an abstract belief you never acted upon.
Take the apostle Peter for example. There he was at the scene where Jesus was being crucified. It seemed that all was lost as his world slowly fell apart. Then someone approaches him and asks him if he was one of the twelve. Then scared out of his mind he curses at them and denies it. In fact, he denies is two more times after that!!
So did Peter really believe that lying was wrong? I say he did, however, at that moment I think the morality given to him by Jesus was in doubt because of the circumstances. At that very moment I believe he was wavering as to whether Jesus was the real deal or whether he was not. At that moment I think the belief that self preservation trumped the words of his disgraced and dying Master in his own mind. However, then the rooster crowed as he recalled his Master telling him that he would deny him three times before hearing the rooster crow. It was at that point that there was no doubt as to the validity of his Master and what he stood for despite the circumstances at hand. It was at that point his belief that the morality Christ taught in terms of not lying trumped his own scared inclination at lying and self preservation. it was at that point that he began to weep bitterly and had a change of heart. He then many years later gladly gave his life for his Master.
I do think that many people claiming to be theists are actually agnostics playing a 'just in case' game.[/b]
You may be right!! Like my pastor said the other day, faith involves an element of doubt, otherwise it is not faith. What distinguishes the believer from the nonbeliever is not doubt, rather, it is the dominate belief that reigns inside them and dominates all else. It is the belief that influences your actions.
As I have said before, one MUST have faith when dealing with the Almighty. Think about it, can you or do you know everything about him if he exists? What it boils down to is the finite interacting with the infinite. Therefore, there will always be questions about his infinite nature thus you either approach such mysteries with faith or otherwise.
Biblically we see this with his apostle Thomas. He doubted his resurrection and demanded to feel his wounds before believing.
Originally posted by whodey I don't think my argument ignores the faith vs works issue because if you believe something the works will naturally flow from that belief. They simply go hand in hand. However, if other beliefs super impose themselves to snuff out that belief good works may not necessarily follow.
You are still not addressing the central issue.
I believe that it is wrong for me to steal or commit murder. This is not a religious belief. You may believe the same thing based on a religious belief.
Although both our actions stem from different beliefs the resulting actions are the same.
Would God let you into heaven and not me because of our differing beliefs even if our 'works' were identical?
This will help separate:
1. Jesus told us to believe in him so that we would do good works.
2. Jesus told us to believe in him because such belief is inherently good and necessary to get into heaven and he separately told us to do good works and the belief will also lead to good works.
Originally posted by whodey Take the apostle Peter for example. There he was at the scene where Jesus was being crucified. It seemed that all was lost as his world slowly fell apart. Then someone approaches him and asks him if he was one of the twelve. Then scared out of his mind he curses at them and denies it. In fact, he denies is two more times after that!!
So did Peter real ...[text shortened]... tterly and had a change of heart. He then many years later gladly gave his life for his Master.
i do not agree. he walked with jesus for several years. he watched him perform miracles. he heard him say "i am the son of god". he saw how kind and god of a person he is. and he believed in him because he stayed. jesus never promissed him a nike ad deal, never promised them riches. the apostles, including Peter stayed for him.
so what changes in peter at the moment of his denying Jesus is not that he loses his belief. not at all, thing proven by the fact that after the rooster cries he is ashamed. the thing that changes is his strength to stand by his beliefs in the face of danger. his belief is the same, he just can't bring himself to act on it out of fear. (after which i believe he vows never to be afraid to stand by his belief in Christ).
Originally posted by dystoniac I'm surprised that you even know how to use a computer. Yo, I didn't make the laws; go take it up with God.
no, you didn't make the laws. angry mysoginistic jews made them and then the apostles. and then corrupt and hypocrite catholic cardinals interpreted them. and then luther interpreted the interpretations, and then the mormons came along.
how much of the bible is really god's work? how much of "repent and you shall be saved" is true, logical and consistent with the idea of a just and merciful god?
"I wanted a bike once so i prayed every day to get one. Then i realized God doesn't work that way, so i stole a bike and prayed to God for forgiveness"
Emo Philips.
Is it true? all we have to do is repent and accept Jesus? doesn't this acceptance mean you will act accordingly with Jesus's teachings as well? So a muslim doctor who act in accordance with jesus' teachings is going to hell? but a serial child rapist and murderer only has to repent and accept Jesus in his heart and he will be forgiven?
Originally posted by Zahlanzi [b]i do not agree. he walked with jesus for several years. he watched him perform miracles. he heard him say "i am the son of god". he saw how kind and god of a person he is. and he believed in him because he stayed. jesus never promissed him a nike ad deal, never promised them riches. the apostles, including Peter stayed for him.
You assume that seeing is believing. In fact, according to scripture many people saw Jesus do miracles but did not follow after him. In addition, his disciple Judas was one of the 12 yet he went the other direction. You see, miracles can be "explained away" and even when they can't be, what is left is trust in the force you beleive in that performed the miracles. For example, the children of Israel watched God seperate the Red Sea according to Biblical accounts yet after a while, they lost faith in that power and then built a golden calf to worship. You see, seeing is not necessarily believing. There is nearly ALWAYS a measure of doubt involved and even if you believe in the power of that force, do you believe it is always benevalent or all powerful?
Belief
05 Feb '09 17:44
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