Originally posted by avalanchethecat Are you putting forward Kierkegaard as a typical theist? I don't see any of the theists here echoing the 'doubt is integral to faith' position!
Got to respect 'Doubting Thomas'. Guy recognized there were obstacles but was driven
by the desire to know with certainty and persevered with tenacity to overcome them.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat I think Kierkegaard's point was that you cannot overcome the doubt. Mind you, I could be wrong, I've not really studied his work at any length.
Far greater example than Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, Thomas or anybody else would be bow legged,
celibate, intellectually brilliant, zealous Paul who murdered many Believers in Christ with a vengeance right up
until a brighter light went on in his thick bald head on a dusty road to Damascus and he accepted a grace gift.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat Again, not really the point of the thread. Having seen the light, how is it that one can then lose it?
You can't lose your salvation following the point in time you decide to say 'yes' to the grace gift by inaudibly telling God the Father you are believing in Jesus Christ. Why? Because it all depends on Him, not us. Once you're a member of His Royal Family you don't get out. His work is perfect. Nothing's left to chance. He won't let you go or forsake you. Your eternal future is assured.
Some baby believers never grow up. Many screw up big time by getting into moral (legalistic) or immoral (lascivious) degeneracy and behave far worse than upright establishment oriented unbelievers and/or self righteous blowhards or atheists. So what happens. Simple. It's now a family matter. God administers warning/intensive discipline for the benefit of the recalcitrant child. Immature and ignorant believers in Christ still spend eternity in heaven... sans reward or status, as grateful peons for all eternity.
Personal sin is not the issue in salvation. Already judged when Christ propitiated the Father's Justice with His own substitutionary spiritual death (separation from the Father) on our behalf. There's only one unpardonable sin: Rejection of Christ.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH I think your study group is so small as to be labeled insignificant.
I think FreakyKBH has a tendency to be very patronising towards anyone who really does not agree with him. He appears confident that he is right and will in the end always be shown to be right. However, having read many of his posts I conclude that he is not engaged in debate but in preaching and hopefully conversion. When he sees that he is not going to succeed he turns nasty. Sadly this exposes the hollowness of his creed. Ultimately, conversion requires some level of empathy and he lacks that.
Originally posted by finnegan I think FreakyKBH has a tendency to be very patronising towards anyone who really does not agree with him. He appears confident that he is right and will in the end always be shown to be right. However, having read many of his posts I conclude that he is not engaged in debate but in preaching and hopefully conversion. When he sees that he is not going to su ...[text shortened]... ollowness of his creed. Ultimately, conversion requires some level of empathy and he lacks that.
Oh, come now: you don't really believe this, do you? Are you expecting all of us to accept that you came up with this idea all on your own? Tut, tut.
Verily, I say unto thee: get thee behind me, Stan. (I couldn't bring myself to elevating you to such a lofty significant status, so you'll have to content yourself with Stan. Sorry!)
I wish that I could get a sense for what you're saying, but as it lacks any real cohesion or precision, I find myself feeling cold--- empty--- upon reading your every post. Do try harder, won't you?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH Oh, come now: you don't really believe this, do you? Are you expecting all of us to accept that you came up with this idea all on your own? Tut, tut.
Verily, I say unto thee: get thee behind me, Stan. (I couldn't bring myself to elevating you to such a lofty significant status, so you'll have to content yourself with Stan. Sorry!)
I wish th ...[text shortened]... nd myself feeling cold--- empty--- upon reading your every post. Do try harder, won't you?
Try harder to what? I tried to debate with you, now I have stopped that game. I post what I think and hope to find people willing to DEBATE what I say.
It seems some people want to know how one who is regenerated could lose faith.
By not taking care to keep the conscience clean by confession, Paul said some made shipwreck of their faith:
" Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith" (1 Timothy 1:19)
One a person is born again Christ seeks to spread out within them, filling their soul and personality. As the Christian becomes aware of sins he should confess and allow the blood of Christ to maintain peace and fellowship through pure conscience. Neglecting this matter of the pure conscience can cause faith to leak out.
So Paul exhorts "Holding faith and a good conscience ..." And Paul said that he exercised to always have a conscience void of offense before God and man.
Confessing our sins that we become aware of maintians living communion with the Holy Spirit.
Losing faith does not cause one to be un born again. It can cause the backslider to be out of fresh fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Such people can become like a person with amnesia. They seemed to have forgotten somthing.
It is only a matter of time that the laser like beam of holy light shines again in their hearts and they remember that Jesus was a living Person.
They cannot lose regeneration any more than they can stop being their father's child. But a defiled conscience with many unconfessed sins causes their faith to leak away.
The problem of backsliding is not ignored in the Bible in either the Old Testament or the New. Peter was a big example of a backslider who after promising to follow the Lord Jesus, denied knowing Him three times and with cursing. At that finally before a little powerless slave girl who was about to blow his cover.
Peter, being the virtual leader of the 12 disciples was a backslider. This should be an encouragement to all disciples of Jesus. If Peter backslide and denied his Lord yet was restored to a proper relationship, we all can be.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat I'm sure you believe you are correct, but I respectfully suggest that you do a little research before wading in with such sweeping generalisations.
Sweeping generalizations? Are you sure you're not talking about your OP?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby You can't lose your salvation following the point in time you decide to say 'yes' to the grace gift by inaudibly telling God the Father you are believing in Jesus Christ. Why? Because it all depends on Him, not us. Once you're a member of His Royal Family you don't get out. His work is perfect. Nothing's left to chance. He won't let you go or forsake yo ...[text shortened]... onable sin: Rejection of Christ.
..............................................
So if I don't "accept" christ,(whatever that means), does that mean I'm rejecting him? Because I really don't think I'm doing either.
13 May '10 21:09
Believe It... Or Not?
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