Spirituality
12 May 10
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatThe best (imo) example I've seen of this is so-called "born again christians". I've met a couple who were like totally born-again. And then later in life they've renounced their... "born-againess"(?).
If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
I guess you learn that what you decide when you 're younger and less experienced doesn't always last a lifetime.
And personally, I couldn't care less what faith one is , or was.
We're all climbing the same mountain.
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatFor me, “leap of faith” means nothing more than a willingness to enter into a process of trial and error. That is doubtless not what Kierkegaard meant (or most religionists mean). “Faith” to me means just an attitude of confidence necessary to give the trial a fair test (this is probably more the way that a therapist or a sports psychologist would use the term); it certainly does not mean to me an alternative to basing one’s beliefs (or rejecting beliefs) on reason-giving evidence.
If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
In terms of living my life, “faith” is just a kind of existential attitude of confidence that does not entail any particular hoped-for outcome. It is just a rewarding way to live (to maximize one’s chances of living with some joy and serenity).
But since these usages (again, outside of such things as therapy or sports psychology or the like) seem pretty idiosyncratic, I tend to eschew the term altogether in general discourse.
13 May 10
2 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecatDo you mean people like Anthony Flew who has now renounced atheism for some kind of deism ?
If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
Do you mean people like C.S. Lewis who changed his mind from atheism to take Christian theism ?
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13 May 10
Originally posted by jaywillExcellent point! People will believe anything that gives them a warm fuzzy. Find your on way and don't worry about numbers. Judge what people actually do and not what they say.
Do you mean people like Anthony Flew who has now renounced atheism for some kind of deism ?
Do you mean people like C.S. Lewis who changed his mind from atheism to take Christian theism ?
13 May 10
2 edits
Originally posted by TerrierJack===================================
Excellent point! People will believe anything that gives them a warm fuzzy. Find your on way and don't worry about numbers. Judge what people actually do and not what they say.
Excellent point! People will believe anything that gives them a warm fuzzy.
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You mean like how atheism gives you a warm fuzzy?
Sometimes there is no particular feeling associated with coming to truth.
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Find your on way and don't worry about numbers. Judge what people actually do and not what they say.
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Judge rather both. What was done? What was said?
13 May 10
Originally posted by vistesdsome people "want" to believe, but never experience that "vast oceanic experince" as Frued called it. Who can really know why some feel it and some don't? Is it genetic? Is it a predisposition to expect not to feel it?
For me, “leap of faith” means nothing more than a willingness to enter into a process of trial and error. That is doubtless not what Kierkegaard meant (or most religionists mean). “Faith” to me means just an attitude of confidence necessary to give the trial a fair test (this is probably more the way that a therapist or a sports psychologist would u ...[text shortened]... the like) seem pretty idiosyncratic, I tend to eschew the term altogether in general discourse.
I would agree though that people who want to experience it need to give it a fair test, though I am not sure how to define that.
13 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillNo atheist has ever claimed to me that were I to try being an atheist, or simply open my heart to atheism, mystical disbelief would fill the space and I would doubt no more. I have often heard the converse from religious persons, however. So no, I don't mean people like that, but then I suspect you already knew what I meant, didn't you?
Do you mean people like Anthony Flew who has now renounced atheism for some kind of deism ?
Do you mean people like C.S. Lewis who changed his mind from atheism to take Christian theism ?
Incidentally, I don't think Flew believes anything any more, as he's carked it.
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatThe reason you never heard of an atheist encouraging others to open up their mind to the possibilities is that none exist. They don't want careful examination of their anti-stance; they simply want that which they stand against to go away.
No atheist has ever claimed to me that were I to try being an atheist, or simply open my heart to atheism, mystical disbelief would fill the space and I would doubt no more. I have often heard the converse from religious persons, however. So no, I don't mean people like that, but then I suspect you already knew what I meant, didn't you?
Incidentally, I don't think Flew believes anything any more, as he's carked it.
Atheism is a reaction, not a response.
Mr. Flew certainly doesn't believe anything anymore. Instead, he emphatically knows it.
13 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou appear to be dodging the OP there Freaky.
The reason you never heard of an atheist encouraging others to open up their mind to the possibilities is that none exist. They don't want careful examination of their anti-stance; they simply want that which they stand against to go away.
Atheism is a reaction, not a response.
Mr. Flew certainly doesn't believe anything anymore. Instead, he emphatically knows it.
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatI'm not sure what you mean by 'taking the leap of faith'.
If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
I'd cautiously suggest that the 'ardent believers' who go on to lose their faith -- never once leapt.
13 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageIt's a 'leap of faith' to believe in an unproven postulate.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'taking the leap of faith'.
I'd cautiously suggest that the 'ardent believers' who go on to lose their faith -- never once leapt.
Your suggestion may of course be the right of it. And yet they make all the same noises as the supposed genuine believers. Hmm.....
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatKierkegaard did not make the same noises as anyone I have heard or read. Although there was a strange resemblance to Nietzsche.
It's a 'leap of faith' to believe in an unproven postulate.
Your suggestion may of course be the right of it. And yet they make all the same noises as the supposed genuine believers. Hmm.....
13 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAre you putting forward Kierkegaard as a typical theist? I don't see any of the theists here echoing the 'doubt is integral to faith' position!
Kierkegaard did not make the same noises as anyone I have heard or read. Although there was a strange resemblance to Nietzsche.