1. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    12 May '10 20:06
    If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    13 May '10 00:27
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
    The best (imo) example I've seen of this is so-called "born again christians". I've met a couple who were like totally born-again. And then later in life they've renounced their... "born-againess"(?).
    I guess you learn that what you decide when you 're younger and less experienced doesn't always last a lifetime.

    And personally, I couldn't care less what faith one is , or was.
    We're all climbing the same mountain.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    13 May '10 04:00
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
    For me, “leap of faith” means nothing more than a willingness to enter into a process of trial and error. That is doubtless not what Kierkegaard meant (or most religionists mean). “Faith” to me means just an attitude of confidence necessary to give the trial a fair test (this is probably more the way that a therapist or a sports psychologist would use the term); it certainly does not mean to me an alternative to basing one’s beliefs (or rejecting beliefs) on reason-giving evidence.

    In terms of living my life, “faith” is just a kind of existential attitude of confidence that does not entail any particular hoped-for outcome. It is just a rewarding way to live (to maximize one’s chances of living with some joy and serenity).

    But since these usages (again, outside of such things as therapy or sports psychology or the like) seem pretty idiosyncratic, I tend to eschew the term altogether in general discourse.
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    13 May '10 11:162 edits
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
    Do you mean people like Anthony Flew who has now renounced atheism for some kind of deism ?

    Do you mean people like C.S. Lewis who changed his mind from atheism to take Christian theism ?
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    13 May '10 12:32
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Do you mean people like Anthony Flew who has now renounced atheism for some kind of deism ?

    Do you mean people like C.S. Lewis who changed his mind from atheism to take Christian theism ?
    Excellent point! People will believe anything that gives them a warm fuzzy. Find your on way and don't worry about numbers. Judge what people actually do and not what they say.
  6. England
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    13 May '10 13:54
    or it could be the parable of the seeds, some fell on, others fell on etc. but the one you refer to they fell on ground grew then the cares of the world grew up around them
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    13 May '10 15:192 edits
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Excellent point! People will believe anything that gives them a warm fuzzy. Find your on way and don't worry about numbers. Judge what people actually do and not what they say.
    ===================================
    Excellent point! People will believe anything that gives them a warm fuzzy.
    ==================================


    You mean like how atheism gives you a warm fuzzy?

    Sometimes there is no particular feeling associated with coming to truth.

    ==============================
    Find your on way and don't worry about numbers. Judge what people actually do and not what they say.
    ===============================


    Judge rather both. What was done? What was said?
  8. Subscriberduecer
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    13 May '10 15:42
    Originally posted by vistesd
    For me, “leap of faith” means nothing more than a willingness to enter into a process of trial and error. That is doubtless not what Kierkegaard meant (or most religionists mean). “Faith” to me means just an attitude of confidence necessary to give the trial a fair test (this is probably more the way that a therapist or a sports psychologist would u ...[text shortened]... the like) seem pretty idiosyncratic, I tend to eschew the term altogether in general discourse.
    some people "want" to believe, but never experience that "vast oceanic experince" as Frued called it. Who can really know why some feel it and some don't? Is it genetic? Is it a predisposition to expect not to feel it?

    I would agree though that people who want to experience it need to give it a fair test, though I am not sure how to define that.
  9. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    13 May '10 17:401 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Do you mean people like Anthony Flew who has now renounced atheism for some kind of deism ?

    Do you mean people like C.S. Lewis who changed his mind from atheism to take Christian theism ?
    No atheist has ever claimed to me that were I to try being an atheist, or simply open my heart to atheism, mystical disbelief would fill the space and I would doubt no more. I have often heard the converse from religious persons, however. So no, I don't mean people like that, but then I suspect you already knew what I meant, didn't you?

    Incidentally, I don't think Flew believes anything any more, as he's carked it.
  10. Territories Unknown
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    13 May '10 19:32
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    No atheist has ever claimed to me that were I to try being an atheist, or simply open my heart to atheism, mystical disbelief would fill the space and I would doubt no more. I have often heard the converse from religious persons, however. So no, I don't mean people like that, but then I suspect you already knew what I meant, didn't you?

    Incidentally, I don't think Flew believes anything any more, as he's carked it.
    The reason you never heard of an atheist encouraging others to open up their mind to the possibilities is that none exist. They don't want careful examination of their anti-stance; they simply want that which they stand against to go away.

    Atheism is a reaction, not a response.

    Mr. Flew certainly doesn't believe anything anymore. Instead, he emphatically knows it.
  11. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    13 May '10 19:50
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    The reason you never heard of an atheist encouraging others to open up their mind to the possibilities is that none exist. They don't want careful examination of their anti-stance; they simply want that which they stand against to go away.

    Atheism is a reaction, not a response.

    Mr. Flew certainly doesn't believe anything anymore. Instead, he emphatically knows it.
    You appear to be dodging the OP there Freaky.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 May '10 19:53
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    If taking the leap of faith is really so illuminating, how is it that some ardent believers later change their minds, rejecting their religion?
    I'm not sure what you mean by 'taking the leap of faith'.

    I'd cautiously suggest that the 'ardent believers' who go on to lose their faith -- never once leapt.
  13. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    13 May '10 20:08
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'm not sure what you mean by 'taking the leap of faith'.

    I'd cautiously suggest that the 'ardent believers' who go on to lose their faith -- never once leapt.
    It's a 'leap of faith' to believe in an unproven postulate.

    Your suggestion may of course be the right of it. And yet they make all the same noises as the supposed genuine believers. Hmm.....
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 May '10 20:11
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    It's a 'leap of faith' to believe in an unproven postulate.

    Your suggestion may of course be the right of it. And yet they make all the same noises as the supposed genuine believers. Hmm.....
    Kierkegaard did not make the same noises as anyone I have heard or read. Although there was a strange resemblance to Nietzsche.
  15. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    13 May '10 20:20
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Kierkegaard did not make the same noises as anyone I have heard or read. Although there was a strange resemblance to Nietzsche.
    Are you putting forward Kierkegaard as a typical theist? I don't see any of the theists here echoing the 'doubt is integral to faith' position!
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