believe it or not.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
I've thought about that as well. When a little old lady rolls the wrecked car off their grandchild, something out of the ordinary happened. What was it? Her muslces certainly weren't capable of it. And even if they were, her bones would break. Was that the "faith of a mustard seed" that Jesus spoke of? Was it an ability we all have, that we just don't k ...[text shortened]... me to the Bible and the Bible makes it all make sense. That's why I believe in God.

DF

Precisely which little old lady is this? Or is it a generic little old lady dreamed up by you to try and provide 'proof' of your assertion? Perhaps the car was precipitiously on it's edge - that wasn't stated. You need to start telling the whole story - without gaps - to have any type of credibility.

Originally posted by Kaboooomba
what is it that makes you believe or not in God ...

I have repeatedly tried to encourage the truly inquisitive to examine Julian Jaynes' "The Origin Of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind" which outlines how both speech and the internalized predisposition to seek and obey higher authorities came into being in the human beings who were our forefathers and mothers, millenia ago.....

Dan Schneider offers tantalizing glimpses of Jaynes' work at

http://www.cosmoetica.com/B103-DES58.htm

Among these is the following review quote: ‘When Julian Jaynes...speculates that until late in the second millennium B.C. men had no consciousness but were automatically obeying the voices of gods, we are astounded but compelled to follow this remarkable thesis through all the corroborative evidence...'

....John Updike, The New Yorker

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I did ask this on another thread. I may have been less concise, but more legible! I asked, 'how can our Christian friends differentiate between the things they believe in?' For example, as a kid they knew that Santa existed, they knew that when they woke up on Xmas morning presents would await; hence, for them (and me!), Santa DID exist! They got old ...[text shortened]... esents (or presence?) will not be there. What is the logical basis for the differentiation?

The God-Santa analogy doesn't make sense. It wasn't just that Brian Fallon told me in second grade that there was no Santa. You left out the important part -- the presents came from my parents, and continued to do so. They made them or purchased what other humans made and then put them under the tree. They also didn't hide them very well. It makes sense to wonder why people choose one religion over another or why they choose the faith of believing there is no power greater than themselves. But no one can factually say that God-by-any-name doesn't exist. They can say that they don't believe a god exists and why, but it's still an opinion. It is a fact that St. Nicholas died a VERY long time ago and the gift-giving tradition ascribed to him doesn't include his actual current participation. It is a fact that my parents knew that they were the ones buying and wrapping the gifts as they carried on a tradition in the country they lived in (as an immigrant, my father didn't grow up with this tradition himself).

The existence of a diety isn't based on my beliefs; if it was, then God didn't exist until I converted as an adult, and prior to that there was no God because I didn't believe. My beliefs don't control reality, unfortunately. Many people believe in a diety and many people don't, but until we die we don't find out who's right.

tsk...and i thought chess required thinking

Originally posted by reader1107
The God-Santa analogy doesn't make sense. It wasn't just that Brian Fallon told me in second grade that there was no Santa. You left out the important part -- the presents came from my parents, and continued to do so. They made them or purchased what other humans made and then put them under the tree. They also didn't hide them very well. It makes se ...[text shortened]... in a diety and many people don't, but until we die we don't find out who's right.

No, my analogy does not leave that out. The existance or non-existance of either God or Santa is irrespective of anyone's beliefs. You seem to be arguing from the a priori assumption that god does exist. As you rightly point out, of course, the jury is still out on that one (and more people don't believe in your christian god than do believe in him). Simply because you cannot see the cosmic 'parents' who are leaving you the presents (or presence?) of God is irrespective. Maybe you just haven't seen through the mythos or God yet.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
I've thought about that as well. When a little old lady rolls the wrecked car off their grandchild, something out of the ordinary happened. What was it? Her muslces certainly weren't capable of it. And even if they were, her bones would break. Was that the "faith of a mustard seed" that Jesus spoke of? Was it an ability we all have, that we just don't k ...[text shortened]... me to the Bible and the Bible makes it all make sense. That's why I believe in God.

DF

So, you believe in God to explain away that which you do not understand?

Originally posted by DragonFriend
........ And God leads me to the Bible and the Bible makes it all make sense. That's why I believe in God.

DF

You dont explain how God leads you to the Bible. Do you think that miracles dont happen in muslim countries. Do you think that all the situations you have given dont hapen when people pray to Allah ? I can assure you that there is not distinction in the results whatever God you pray to, so why Christianity ?

Originally posted by DragonFriend
I've often wondered if God was simply an idea in my head and not a real entity. But I keep having experiences that say otherwise.
Things like - trying to break up a pillar of concrete with a sledge hammer and the only time the stuff actually breaks is when I pray before the swing (this went on for a few hours), or praying that my pissed-off bent-out-o ...[text shortened]... out of random chance. But it's easy to conclude that God did what He promised He'd do.

DF

Unbelievable.

Riddle me this, god-boy. Why would god would take the time to hear and answer your prayers that pertain to something as trivial and selfish as help to break up concrete and yet if thousands of Christians were to gather in one place to pray together for the end of famine in Africa, those prayers would go ignored?

Why can god handle such trivial matters as your rock-breaking yet there are still thousands of children being kidnapped and sold as sex slaves? Has god lost his sense of priority or does he simply no longer care for humanity's well-being?

Originally posted by Positional Player
So, you believe in God to explain away that which you do not understand?

No, I believe in God because it explains the many things I do know.

DF

Originally posted by twhitehead
You dont explain how God leads you to the Bible. Do you think that miracles dont happen in muslim countries. Do you think that all the situations you have given dont hapen when people pray to Allah ? I can assure you that there is not distinction in the results whatever God you pray to, so why Christianity ?

That's the very first question I asked myself when I decided to seek God. Which god? There are many religions out there, which one is correct?
To answer that question I started with a premis, if the flood account in the Bible is true, then the Christian god must be the true god because if the others existed they wouldn't let all their people die. I searched and found "proof" (which later turned out to be bogus) that the flood really did happen. That "proof" allowed me to give God the benefit of the doubt, and then He showed Himself to me.
Why do I continue to be a Christian? Because the Bible has proven itself to be a reliable source. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever found proof of the flood, but I now have personal proof of God. Which god do I have proof of? It only makes sense that it would be the god of the Bible as the more I follow the teachings of the Bible the more my life becomes blessed. Surely, Allah wouldn't reward me for following the teachings of a "false" religion.
Does that make sense?

DF

Originally posted by Kaboooomba
what is it that makes you believe or not in God which cannot be proved with much certainty through human intelegence.if God could have a defining factor through intelect don't you think we would all be believers by this point in time. (sic)

Yes, I do, which kinda makes me wonder when I read 2 Peter 3:8-9 why God would not reveal himself through such a factor.

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9 NIV

Originally posted by darvlay
Unbelievable.

Riddle me this, god-boy. Why would god would take the time to hear and answer your prayers that pertain to something as trivial and selfish as help to break up concrete and yet if thousands of Christians were to gather in one place to pray together for the end of famine in Africa, those prayers would go ignored?

Why can god handle such t ...[text shortened]... Has god lost his sense of priority or does he simply no longer care for humanity's well-being?

LOL
So, you want God to cure all the woes in the world, eh? And if He doesn't, well then He must not exist.
If God were to just step in and cure all the famines in the world, then why not cure AIDS. And if AIDS, when not cancer. And if cancer, why not things like rape and muder. And if rape... Do you see the problem? Where should He draw the line? No matter where He draws it, it wouldn't be fair to others. Unless, of course, He removes all evil from the world. But to do that He'd have to remove freewill. And without freewill there can not be love. And that goes against the very purpose for creating us in the first place.
So God has to deal with it all or none of it. And since dealing with all of it removes the purpose of creation, He deals with none of it but, gives us instructions for how we can deal with it ourselves. God won't make us follow His rules (it would remove our freewill) so it's up to us to stop the problems in this world that we have caused.
No, we can't control the weather in the drought stricken areas, but we do have the capability of moving those people to a more livable area. But the governments in those areas won't allow it, so we're back to a man made problem.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
LOL
So, you want God to cure all the woes in the world, eh? And if He doesn't, well then He must not exist.

That's not what Darvlay asked.

If God were to just step in and cure all the famines in the world, then why not cure AIDS. And if AIDS, when not cancer. And if cancer, why not things like rape and muder. And if rape... Do you see the problem?

No, can you enlighten me? Ignoring for the moment that AIDS and Cancer are not evil, what would be the problem with getting rid of all the evil in the world?

Where should He draw the line? No matter where He draws it, it wouldn't be fair to others. Unless, of course, He removes all evil from the world. But to do that He'd have to remove freewill.

Why?

And without freewill there can not be love.

How so?

And that goes against the very purpose for creating us in the first place. So God has to deal with it all or none of it. And since dealing with all of it removes the purpose of creation, He deals with none of it but, gives us instructions for how we can deal with it ourselves.

So he didn't help you with the sledgehamer?

God won't make us follow His rules (it would remove our freewill) so it's up to us to stop the problems in this world that we have caused.

So threatening us with eternal damnation isn't an attempt to force us to accept his rules?

No, we can't control the weather in the drought stricken areas, but we do have the capability of moving those people to a more livable area. But the governments in those areas won't allow it, so we're back to a man made problem.

This has nothing to do with Darvlay's post.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
LOL
So, you want God to cure all the woes in the world, eh? And if He doesn't, well then He must not exist.
If God were to just step in and cure all the famines in the world, then why not cure AIDS. And if AIDS, when not cancer. And if cancer, why not things like rape and muder. And if rape... Do you see the problem? Where should He draw the line? No ...[text shortened]... he governments in those areas won't allow it, so we're back to a man made problem.

DF

This has to be a C&P. You posted the exact same thing a month or so ago.

If a line must be drawn (and no theist has been intelligent enough to show me that it must), then draw it at the minimum evil required for free will to exist. All the rest is unnecessary evil and can only be there to satisfy your idol's love of variety.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
LOL
So, you want God to cure all the woes in the world, eh? And if He doesn't, well then He must not exist.
If God were to just step in and cure all the famines in the world, then why not cure AIDS. And if AIDS, when not cancer. And if cancer, why not things like rape and muder. And if rape... Do you see the problem? Where should He draw the line? No he governments in those areas won't allow it, so we're back to a man made problem.

DF

Okay. So if I'm reading you correctly, God cannot rid the entire Earth of "evil" because we would then have no free will, and hence have no love, which is why God created us. Forgive me if I'm a little confused. I don't see the correlation between starvation caused by geography and overpopulation and evil. I also don't see how cancer is evil.

EDIT - Having read telerion's post (Birthday Buddies Forever), I am curious to see how you answer him...