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    10 Feb '06 08:20
    what is it that makes you believe or not in God which cannot be proved with much certainty through human intelegence.if God could have a defining factor through intelect don't you think we would all be believers by this point in time.as a Christian what other avenues are there to take towards proving the unprovable?
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    10 Feb '06 09:451 edit
    I can honestly say that I don't know what you just said, but I suspect you're skeptical to the existence of God, in which case I agree. :
  3. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    10 Feb '06 12:15
    Originally posted by Kaboooomba
    what is it that makes you believe or not in God which cannot be proved with much certainty through human intelegence.if God could have a defining factor through intelect don't you think we would all be believers by this point in time.as a Christian what other avenues are there to take towards proving the unprovable?
    I did ask this on another thread. I may have been less concise, but more legible! I asked, 'how can our Christian friends differentiate between the things they believe in?' For example, as a kid they knew that Santa existed, they knew that when they woke up on Xmas morning presents would await; hence, for them (and me!), Santa DID exist! They got older and found out Santa didn't exist. Maybe, god doesn't exist too, but no-one told them yet. How to differentiate between those two circumstances? Maybe one morning, when they wake up, gods presents (or presence?) will not be there. What is the logical basis for the differentiation?
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    10 Feb '06 12:30
    Originally posted by Kaboooomba
    what is it that makes you believe or not in God which cannot be proved with much certainty through human intelegence.if God could have a defining factor through intelect don't you think we would all be believers by this point in time.as a Christian what other avenues are there to take towards proving the unprovable?
    Is English your first language? It was rather hard to get a meaning out of that. Sorry if it isn't.

    I do not believe in God. One major reason is the bible I do not agree with many of the things in there some for ethical reasons, some for scientific reasons. I think if there was a God there would not be such a flawed book (In my eyes) that are called his word.

    The Word states, clear as day,
    Leviticus Chapter 19, Verse 19:

    "Neither shall a garment made of
    two types of materials come upon you."

    http://www.godhatesrags.com/bible.html

    I just think that many of the things in the bible go against common sense and my ethics. Also a reason I am against religion is it can be perverted and used to start wars, violence and evil.

    At the moment I have an interest in Buddhism that seems to me the religion with the most sense (this does not mean I have converted. Just an interest reading a few books)
  5. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    10 Feb '06 12:561 edit
    Originally posted by Will Everitt
    Is English your first language? It was rather hard to get a meaning out of that. Sorry if it isn't.

    I do not believe in God. One major reason is the bible I do not agree with many of the things in there some for ethical reasons, some for scientific reasons. I think if there was a God there would not be such a flawed book (In my eyes) that are called th the most sense (this does not mean I have converted. Just an interest reading a few books)
    You know Will I'm a fellow athiest, but as a friendly aside, many things can be perverted to start wars (by people who stand to benefit from them). Religiious arguments are just used more than most!
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    10 Feb '06 13:36
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I did ask this on another thread. I may have been less concise, but more legible! I asked, 'how can our Christian friends differentiate between the things they believe in?' For example, as a kid they knew that Santa existed, they knew that when they woke up on Xmas morning presents would await; hence, for them (and me!), Santa DID exist! They got old ...[text shortened]... esents (or presence?) will not be there. What is the logical basis for the differentiation?
    The difference between God and Santa is evidence that skeptics won't accept, personal experience.
    I started off questioning which faith is the "correct" one. I gave the god of the Bible the benefit of the doubt and He showed Himself to me. I'd be a fool to deny what I have personally experienced. Therefore I had to conclude that God is real. Thus I gave the Bible the benefit of the doubt. But it doesn't need it. It's written in human history. The more research I do the more I see this and the more I understand God.
    I feel bad for our skeptic friends who will never go down this road because they are unwilling to take the first step.

    DF
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    10 Feb '06 18:58
    Originally posted by DragonFriend
    The difference between God and Santa is evidence that skeptics won't accept, personal experience.
    I started off questioning which faith is the "correct" one. I gave the god of the Bible the benefit of the doubt and He showed Himself to me. I'd be a fool to deny what I have personally experienced. Therefore I had to conclude that God is real. Thus I gav ...[text shortened]... who will never go down this road because they are unwilling to take the first step.

    DF
    If you want to belive in God then you can. I do not and that is the choice I have come to after thought. I once belived in a God not really for any other reason then it what I was told at school and by everyone. I found the whole thing pointless I didn't gain from it no hope, no fear. I just thought it was boring. Then as I got older I thought more about it and I decided that chances are there isn't a God. I have had no "personal experience" with God. All I ask from you is not to feel bad for me its my choice, my desion and if at the end of my life and I was wrong then hey I think I will be judged on my actions far more then my faith and that seems fair to me, and I see no hope or way with an unfair God nothing you could do to think about nothing you could change. Don't feel bad for me its what I want to think. Its how I want to live my life.
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    13 Feb '06 08:06
    Originally posted by DragonFriend
    The difference between God and Santa is evidence that skeptics won't accept, personal experience.
    I started off questioning which faith is the "correct" one. I gave the god of the Bible the benefit of the doubt and He showed Himself to me. I'd be a fool to deny what I have personally experienced. Therefore I had to conclude that God is real. Thus I gav ...[text shortened]... who will never go down this road because they are unwilling to take the first step.

    DF
    You are so right DF. All it takes is just to take the first step.

    The problem with most of the people, is that they would say that there is no prove of God. Some people would only read/look or study the Bible for evidence, but what you did, made you believe. People who are skeptic about the prove of God should do more RESEARCH.

    Most of you believe in science, most of you read books about other types of religion and most of you even do research on them. If you do the same with Christianity, you will find the way, all will make sence. Try it, what do you really have to loose?
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    13 Feb '06 08:09
    Originally posted by DragonFriend
    The difference between God and Santa is evidence that skeptics won't accept, personal experience.
    I started off questioning which faith is the "correct" one. I gave the god of the Bible the benefit of the doubt and He showed Himself to me. I'd be a fool to deny what I have personally experienced. Therefore I had to conclude that God is real. Thus I gav ...[text shortened]... who will never go down this road because they are unwilling to take the first step.

    DF
    Hey, I resent that! I had heaps of experience with Santa. I sat on his lap this one time when I was about 6, and got a present and everything. AND, I got presents heaps of times on Xmas morning. Never got crucified once when I went to church. Never saw god. Never got presents either.
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    13 Feb '06 08:10
    Originally posted by Nicolaas
    You are so right DF. All it takes is just to take the first step.

    The problem with most of the people, is that they would say that there is no prove of God. Some people would only read/look or study the Bible for evidence, but what you did, made you believe. People who are skeptic about the prove of God should do more RESEARCH.

    Most of you believe in ...[text shortened]... istianity, you will find the way, all will make sence. Try it, what do you really have to loose?
    It's true! Satan has all the grammar!
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    15 Feb '06 16:27
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Hey, I resent that! I had heaps of experience with Santa. I sat on his lap this one time when I was about 6, and got a present and everything. AND, I got presents heaps of times on Xmas morning. Never got crucified once when I went to church. Never saw god. Never got presents either.
    Did you ever give Him a chance? Did you ever truly believe He exists and ask Him to show Himself to you?

    DF
  12. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    15 Feb '06 17:11
    Originally posted by DragonFriend
    The difference between God and Santa is evidence that skeptics won't accept, personal experience.
    I started off questioning which faith is the "correct" one. I gave the god of the Bible the benefit of the doubt and He showed Himself to me. I'd be a fool to deny what I have personally experienced. Therefore I had to conclude that God is real. Thus I gav ...[text shortened]... who will never go down this road because they are unwilling to take the first step.

    DF
    DF -

    Prove to me that it is with God that these experiences took place? Did God, Himself, appear before you and bring your belief truth?

    More likely it is that you had a strong want to believe that God was the reason and used that as your explanation for why these things occured. You also used God as the explanation for why these things in history occured. There are any number of other possible explanations for them, but your are most comfortable and feel best attributiing God for them.

    Could it not be that your assertations are wrong?
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    17 Feb '06 15:25
    Originally posted by KnightWulfe
    DF -

    Prove to me that it is with God that these experiences took place? Did God, Himself, appear before you and bring your belief truth?

    More likely it is that you had a strong want to believe that God was the reason and used that as your explanation for why these things occured. You also used God as the explanation for why these things in history ...[text shortened]... le and feel best attributiing God for them.

    Could it not be that your assertations are wrong?
    I've often wondered if God was simply an idea in my head and not a real entity. But I keep having experiences that say otherwise.
    Things like - trying to break up a pillar of concrete with a sledge hammer and the only time the stuff actually breaks is when I pray before the swing (this went on for a few hours), or praying that my pissed-off bent-out-of-shape mood would go away before I got to my bosses office (which it did, as well as the headache that spurred it), or the healing of an addiction in a single moment that I fought tooth-and-nail, unsuccessfully, for 4.5 years.
    Yes, on the outside one could dismiss these types of events as something else. But there simply have been too many of them in my life that affect things outside of my control for it to be coincidence. And since they all went in my favor, it's hard to conclude that that many things outside of my control went my way out of random chance. But it's easy to conclude that God did what He promised He'd do.

    DF
  14. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    17 Feb '06 16:021 edit
    Originally posted by DragonFriend
    I've often wondered if God was simply an idea in my head and not a real entity. But I keep having experiences that say otherwise.
    Things like - trying to break up a pillar of concrete with a sledge hammer and the only time the stuff actually breaks is when I pray before the swing (this went on for a few hours), or praying that my pissed-off bent-out-o out of random chance. But it's easy to conclude that God did what He promised He'd do.

    DF
    These certainly are events that could be attributed to an outside force, but it could also be that your faith in this force was the actual catalyst for the success of the actions. Your belief that God aided you is what actually aided you and not God, Himself.
    I am not trying to disassemble your belief. Really.
    I often have moments of my own where I cannot seem to accomplish a task - but instead of praying, I focused within and draw from faith in myself and was able to accomplish that which I was unable previous. I tried 7 time in one year to quit smoking and never could. One morning I woke up and just said - I am done, and I meant it - Have not touched a smoke since. Have not even been tempted.

    You attribute your success in those situations to God. I attribute mine to myself and my own will.
    I can honestly admit that I COULD be wrong, because I do not profess to know, with certainty, how it all began.

    I think the difference is that you do.

    Around/Almost 2 Billion people on this planet are some form of Christian. By your belief, your Christian beliefs are right....so does that mean that the other 5 billion people on this planet that believe differently are wrong?

    Science and verifiable fact is the path I choose to follow.
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    19 Feb '06 23:27
    Originally posted by KnightWulfe
    These certainly are events that could be attributed to an outside force, but it could also be that your faith in this force was the actual catalyst for the success of the actions. Your belief that God aided you is what actually aided you and not God, Himself.
    I am not trying to disassemble your belief. Really.
    I often have moments of my own where I ca ...[text shortened]... t believe differently are wrong?

    Science and verifiable fact is the path I choose to follow.
    I've thought about that as well. When a little old lady rolls the wrecked car off their grandchild, something out of the ordinary happened. What was it? Her muslces certainly weren't capable of it. And even if they were, her bones would break. Was that the "faith of a mustard seed" that Jesus spoke of? Was it an ability we all have, that we just don't know how to consciously tap?

    The reason I give credit to God for these things is because it fits the big picture. Not only does God explain these types of events, but 100s of others, others that faith in myself couldn't possible explain.
    Taken individually, any event can be attributed to many possible reasons. But when many events are looked at simultaneously, the possible reasons become few. The only thing that fits all of the events in my life, is God. And God leads me to the Bible and the Bible makes it all make sense. That's why I believe in God.

    DF
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