Originally posted by StarrmanThere's an interesting point with this: if you are a Christian (with other religions it'll depend on the theology) then you are forgiven your sins providing you repent them, so there is no need to feel guilty. If, on the other hand you are an atheist then you hold ultimate moral reponsibility for your own actions and any feelings of guilt over misdoings can only be resolved by working to make them right. Which does lead to the inevitable conclusion that moral atheists are more righteous than theists.
You misunderstand. We both fear and have guilt about things which are appropriate to our everyday lives, everybody - atheist or theist - does, that much is undeniable. But you also carry the burden of guilt and fear before god, which I do not. It is my belief that this burden is unwarranted and counter productive to your potential as a human.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtIndeed, but it's a game of tit for tat; the theist will probably counter by saying that morals are god-given and absolute and that without god as a frame of reference for moral behaviour an atheist is unable to act morally. In my opinion this is clearly rubbish, but I have had many, many conversations which have ended in stalemate over this issue. The absolute moral theist just cannot accept that morals might be relative, the relativist atheist cannot lend credence to the notion that morals might not be a social construct.
There's an interesting point with this: if you are a Christian (with other religions it'll depend on the theology) then you are forgiven your sins providing you repent them, so there is no need to feel guilty. If, on the other hand you are an atheist then you hold ultimate moral reponsibility for your own actions and any feelings of guilt over misdoings ...[text shortened]... ch does lead to the inevitable conclusion that moral atheists are more righteous than theists.
Originally posted by StarrmanI just do not see the connection you wish to apply to my life, because
You misunderstand. We both fear and have guilt about things which are appropriate to our everyday lives, everybody - atheist or theist - does, that much is undeniable. But you also carry the burden of guilt and fear before god, which I do not. It is my belief that this burden is unwarranted and counter productive to your potential as a human.
I carry all of my fear and guilt to God, with the expectation to have
Him deal with it for me. You not taking any guilt or fear you have
before God isn't for me a plus, it simply means you have no where to
go with yours, not that you don't have it. Which was why I wondered
why you thought it a plus to not have God in your life, if you
acknowledge you have them, keeping them without an outlet does not
seem like plus to me, but a minus.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayFirstly, god will not help you with your fear of him, it is part and parcel of being a worshipper who believes he will be removed from god's sight if he doesn't worship. You can't fudge the issue by claiming god takes away your fear, you have more fear than me because I do not fear god's judgement. You fear god, this is an extra fear I do not share.
I just do not see the connection you wish to apply to my life, because
I carry all of my fear and guilt to God, with the expectation to have
Him deal with it for me. You not taking any guilt or fear you have
before God isn't for me a plus, it simply means you have no where to
go with yours, not that you don't have it. Which was why I wondered
why you t ...[text shortened]... have them, keeping them without an outlet does not
seem like plus to me, but a minus.
Kelly
Secondly, I have nowhere to go with mine? How do you work that out? Unlike you I have to work through my fears, I must better them or fall prey to them. In doing so I make myself better at each step. You ignore your fears, passing them off to god, you never deal sufficiently with them, happy instead to continue in the delusion that you are looked after, without looking after yourself. Belief in god removes responsibility from you for your fears, guilt, ramifications of action. That is a minus point.
Originally posted by StarrmanActually, perfect Love casts out fear that is one of the very first things
Firstly, god will not help you with your fear of him, it is part and parcel of being a worshipper who believes he will be removed from god's sight if he doesn't worship. You can't fudge the issue by claiming god takes away your fear, you have more fear than me because I do not fear god's judgement. You fear god, this is an extra fear I do not share.
Se ...[text shortened]... ponsibility from you for your fears, guilt, ramifications of action. That is a minus point.
a right relationship with God does, it deals with the reason for our fear
before God. The only need for fear is our guilt before God, which
Jesus died and rose again so we could be clean and righteous before
God so that we can go boldly to God without fear. Your lack of fear at
the moment does mean much any more than my profession of faith,
as far as proof one being a better choice than the other, that will not
manifest itself until we understand the reality of God being real or not
real outside of the realm of faith. So I’d say we both at this time deal
with our fear of God just in a different manner, yours by denial of
God, mine by going to God through Jesus Christ and simply
acknowledging my sins and short comings and asking for forgiveness.
It is very basic with regard to you having no where to go, I have to
deal with life as you do, I have gone through some nasty things in my
life I would not wish on anyone, as I’m sure you have. I know I’m not
alone, you seem to either like it that way or just feel that is all there
is and we both still have to work out issues, deal with losses and short
falls, and work out the ins and outs of all the things that come our
way. You seem to be contradicting yourself here, at one point you
claim I have fears because of God and another you acknowledge I go
to God with my fears for help either God is the reason for my fears or
help or solution to them, it is difficult to claim he is the problem and
the solution at the same time don’t you think?
We all have problems, we all have issues, and we all have to deal with
them, with or without God that is always going to be the case in this
life time. Life is much easier in my opinion with God, knowing this isn’t
it as far as reality is concern, and having God as a foundation to my
life, and a plum line for righteousness, makes decisions much easier
when fudging the truth, getting over when I think I could without
getting caught, or taking the easy way out presents itself. I believe
that righteousness, love, and mercy are more important because of
God than without Him. Without Him, people would simply be just a
bump on the road to be taken carefully or lightly depending on one’s
personal tastes and desires at the moment. With God people are very
important no matter my personal tastes and desires at the moment
so they need to be treated with great respect no matter how I feel
about them, because God loves them, it doesn’t depend on my
feelings alone.
By the way, this has been an enjoyable give and take with you.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay
Actually, perfect Love casts out fear that is one of the very first things
a right relationship with God does, it deals with the reason for our fear
before God. The only need for fear is our guilt before God, which
Jesus died and rose again so we could be clean and righteous before
God so that we can go boldly to God without fear.
Why do you worship god? If it is because he demands it, what is the consequence of not doing so? If it is some form of punishment, your reasons for worshipping god are based upon a fear of retribution. This is just a basic and simple analysis I think is pretty self evident. This fear endures through your life, I do not see that it is taken away from you.
Your lack of fear at the moment does mean much any more than my profession of faith, as far as proof one being a better choice than the other, that will not manifest itself until we understand the reality of God being real or not real outside of the realm of faith.
The important point is that there is a fear we cannot share, one that you hold and I do not, that of god. This impacts on your life but does not do so on mine.
So I’d say we both at this time deal with our fear of God just in a different manner, yours by denial of God, mine by going to God through Jesus Christ and simply acknowledging my sins and short comings and asking for forgiveness.
I have no fear of god. I can understand why you might find it hard to believe that since you are immersed in such a view of god. But my denial of god is not based on anything but the lack of evidence for him. It just seems silly to me to believe in him, amusing even. There really is no fear involved.
It is very basic with regard to you having no where to go, I have to
deal with life as you do, I have gone through some nasty things in my
life I would not wish on anyone, as I’m sure you have. I know I’m not
alone, you seem to either like it that way or just feel that is all there
is and we both still have to work out issues, deal with losses and short
falls, and work out the ins and outs of all the things that come our
way.
I agree with you here.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here, at one point you
claim I have fears because of God and another you acknowledge I go
to God with my fears for help either God is the reason for my fears or
help or solution to them, it is difficult to claim he is the problem and
the solution at the same time don’t you think?
I'm not sure you've understood me here. I agree that you can go to god with your fears about your life as a whole, but your fear of god itself is not something god can help you get over. That is my position, it's not a contradiction.
We all have problems, we all have issues, and we all have to deal with them, with or without God that is always going to be the case in this
life time. Life is much easier in my opinion with God, knowing this isn’t
it as far as reality is concern, and having God as a foundation to my
life, and a plum line for righteousness, makes decisions much easier
when fudging the truth, getting over when I think I could without
getting caught, or taking the easy way out presents itself. I believe
that righteousness, love, and mercy are more important because of
God than without Him. Without Him, people would simply be just a
bump on the road to be taken carefully or lightly depending on one’s
personal tastes and desires at the moment. With God people are very
important no matter my personal tastes and desires at the moment
so they need to be treated with great respect no matter how I feel
about them, because God loves them, it doesn’t depend on my
feelings alone.
Here we disagree, I cannot understand why you are unable to see that god's lack of existence would not diminish the lives of humans. I have never been able to understand this, it seems bizarre and pointless to me that humans might only have a point by god's presence. I see existence as something that is valuable in and of itself, it is not defined worthy by some supernatural being.
By the way, this has been an enjoyable give and take with you.
Kelly
You've caught me in one of my more mild mannered moods 😉
Originally posted by Jesse CusterThanks for opening up a bit more. This is more in line with what I was looking for instead of trying to compare your feelings and thoughts as comparable to that of a theist.. Especially when we assume what we think others are thinking and feeling. I realize that revealing personal thoughts a feelings on these boards is a bit daunting at times especially when you feel as though you are opening yourself up for target practice. 😉
I'll give you a more personal answer:
It has freed up some of my mental resources to more practical things. Last time I believed I was only about 14 or so, I couldn't have been that sophisticated. I imagine that if I were still a believer, I would be using up much more resources trying to figure out how I should behave.
It's a lot simpler to go wi ...[text shortened]... cause with your actions" than with a convoluted and contradictory religious belief system.
Originally posted by StarrmanSorry to intrude, but in your previous post you said there were no benfits to being an atheist, however, here we clearly see that you think there is a benefit. Here we see that as an atheist you must face your fears alone which, in your mind, helps you be a stronger and better person over all compared to a theist who weakens themself by passing the buch/burdens over to a higher power. Therefore, in your mind, atheists are stonger than the weak minded theists who use God as a crutch for their troubles. Is this not your position?
Secondly, I have nowhere to go with mine? How do you work that out? Unlike you I have to work through my fears, I must better them or fall prey to them. In doing so I make myself better at each step. You ignore your fears, passing them off to god, you never deal sufficiently with them, happy instead to continue in the delusion that you are looked after, wi ...[text shortened]... responsibility from you for your fears, guilt, ramifications of action. That is a minus point.[/b]
Originally posted by KellyJayTo be fair, however, there are theists out there that do have this dread of God. After all, theism is a broad and diverse group of people. I even know "Christians" who have this type of dread of God in terms of carrying around guilt and worry. I also once viewed God as having a sledge hammer going around thumping people on the head if they got out of line. However, upon my conversion and maturity as a Christian, I now view him very differently and much more in the same way you do in this regard. I think the book of Job opened my eyes a little better in this regard. We see Lucifer as being the one who is watching us to see if we get out of line and going to God and demanding that he deal with us harshly for our sins. He is referred in the Bible as "The accuser of the bretheren". Actually, the word "devil" means accuser. God then is in somewhat of a predicterment in that he must deal justly with the sin but at the same time desires to spare the sinner because he loves them as where Lucifer simply wants to eradicate the sinner. This is why Christ and his message of grace and forgiveness fits the bill in terms of his need to spare the sinner but deal justly with the sin.
How does that work, I'm not concern about sin, I'm not concern about God's being upset, I enjoy God's grace and mercy which removes all fear about those things, and you are saying I'm burdened by fear? Either it is an issue or it isn't.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyNo, you have the position wrong, I claimed there was nothing beneficial in and of atheism and there is not. It is solely a denial of god. In my discussion with Kelly I have attempted to highlight what I believe are disadvantages of theism, not the advantages of atheism.
Sorry to intrude, but in your previous post you said there were no benfits to being an atheist, however, here we clearly see that you think there is a benefit. Here we see that as an atheist you must face your fears alone which, in your mind, helps you be a stronger and better person over all compared to a theist who weakens themself by passing the buch/burd ...[text shortened]... the weak minded theists who use God as a crutch for their troubles. Is this not your position?
I can of course talk about what I am able to do in my life unhindered by god and this could be taken as a benefit of atheism, but I believe that atheism is a base state of humanity and as such, no benefits can arise from it, it is ground zero a it were. You can think about it as a blank sheet of paper in terms of your potential as a human. I believe theism is a degrading choice from that normative state.
Originally posted by Starrman"Why do you worship god? If it is because he demands it, what is the consequence of not doing so?"
Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Actually, perfect Love casts out fear that is one of the very first things
a right relationship with God does, it deals with the reason for our fear
before God. The only need for fear is our guilt before God, which
Jesus died and rose again so we could be clean and righteous before
God so that we can go boldly to nd take with you.
Kelly
You've caught me in one of my more mild mannered moods 😉[/b]
Unlike us (mankind) when we have a god complex it is a bad thing to
think more highly of ourselves than we should; however, God on the
other hand is worthy of my praise. Since God has given me my very
life, all the things I need to keep my life going, all the good things
that are in my life, and protects and helps me deal with all the things
that would ruin or destroy my life. To not praise and thank God
would make me highly ungrateful for all the many blessing He has
given to me. It is only right and just that I praise and worship my
very creator and sustainer of my life and all that there is. We can
look at all God has done (accepting for argument He is real and
active in the universe), and you tell me if we should be grateful to
Him for our very existence or not?
As far as consequence is concern, all of life has consequence you owe
someone something legally and refuse to pay, they can take you to
an authority and deal with your lack of fulfilling your obligations. We
hold each other accountable for that which we owe, and we punish
those that have obligations and refuse to pay or honor them. What is
a just retribution for crimes in against a Kingdom where all actions are
to be motivated by Love? Inside the Kingdom of God, those that
belong to it follow God’s lead, through teachings in scripture, and
God’s Holy Spirit those outside of God’s Kingdom are a law unto
themselves where they judge right and wrong they will be held to their
own standards. God is about to setup an eternal Kingdom and there
are going to be those in it, and those out of it, the judgment is final
with those outside of God’s Kingdom there will be no place in it for
them but one.
More to come, I didn’t want to write a book when just that one line
caused of this.
Kelly