17 Mar '07 23:39>
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomApologies.
lmao i was not being serious with my post
Originally posted by StarrmanThere's an interesting point with this: if you are a Christian (with other religions it'll depend on the theology) then you are forgiven your sins providing you repent them, so there is no need to feel guilty. If, on the other hand you are an atheist then you hold ultimate moral reponsibility for your own actions and any feelings of guilt over misdoings can only be resolved by working to make them right. Which does lead to the inevitable conclusion that moral atheists are more righteous than theists.
You misunderstand. We both fear and have guilt about things which are appropriate to our everyday lives, everybody - atheist or theist - does, that much is undeniable. But you also carry the burden of guilt and fear before god, which I do not. It is my belief that this burden is unwarranted and counter productive to your potential as a human.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtIndeed, but it's a game of tit for tat; the theist will probably counter by saying that morals are god-given and absolute and that without god as a frame of reference for moral behaviour an atheist is unable to act morally. In my opinion this is clearly rubbish, but I have had many, many conversations which have ended in stalemate over this issue. The absolute moral theist just cannot accept that morals might be relative, the relativist atheist cannot lend credence to the notion that morals might not be a social construct.
There's an interesting point with this: if you are a Christian (with other religions it'll depend on the theology) then you are forgiven your sins providing you repent them, so there is no need to feel guilty. If, on the other hand you are an atheist then you hold ultimate moral reponsibility for your own actions and any feelings of guilt over misdoings ...[text shortened]... ch does lead to the inevitable conclusion that moral atheists are more righteous than theists.
Originally posted by StarrmanI just do not see the connection you wish to apply to my life, because
You misunderstand. We both fear and have guilt about things which are appropriate to our everyday lives, everybody - atheist or theist - does, that much is undeniable. But you also carry the burden of guilt and fear before god, which I do not. It is my belief that this burden is unwarranted and counter productive to your potential as a human.
Originally posted by KellyJayFirstly, god will not help you with your fear of him, it is part and parcel of being a worshipper who believes he will be removed from god's sight if he doesn't worship. You can't fudge the issue by claiming god takes away your fear, you have more fear than me because I do not fear god's judgement. You fear god, this is an extra fear I do not share.
I just do not see the connection you wish to apply to my life, because
I carry all of my fear and guilt to God, with the expectation to have
Him deal with it for me. You not taking any guilt or fear you have
before God isn't for me a plus, it simply means you have no where to
go with yours, not that you don't have it. Which was why I wondered
why you t ...[text shortened]... have them, keeping them without an outlet does not
seem like plus to me, but a minus.
Kelly
Originally posted by StarrmanActually, perfect Love casts out fear that is one of the very first things
Firstly, god will not help you with your fear of him, it is part and parcel of being a worshipper who believes he will be removed from god's sight if he doesn't worship. You can't fudge the issue by claiming god takes away your fear, you have more fear than me because I do not fear god's judgement. You fear god, this is an extra fear I do not share.
Se ...[text shortened]... ponsibility from you for your fears, guilt, ramifications of action. That is a minus point.
Originally posted by Jesse CusterThanks for opening up a bit more. This is more in line with what I was looking for instead of trying to compare your feelings and thoughts as comparable to that of a theist.. Especially when we assume what we think others are thinking and feeling. I realize that revealing personal thoughts a feelings on these boards is a bit daunting at times especially when you feel as though you are opening yourself up for target practice. 😉
I'll give you a more personal answer:
It has freed up some of my mental resources to more practical things. Last time I believed I was only about 14 or so, I couldn't have been that sophisticated. I imagine that if I were still a believer, I would be using up much more resources trying to figure out how I should behave.
It's a lot simpler to go wi ...[text shortened]... cause with your actions" than with a convoluted and contradictory religious belief system.
Originally posted by StarrmanSorry to intrude, but in your previous post you said there were no benfits to being an atheist, however, here we clearly see that you think there is a benefit. Here we see that as an atheist you must face your fears alone which, in your mind, helps you be a stronger and better person over all compared to a theist who weakens themself by passing the buch/burdens over to a higher power. Therefore, in your mind, atheists are stonger than the weak minded theists who use God as a crutch for their troubles. Is this not your position?
Secondly, I have nowhere to go with mine? How do you work that out? Unlike you I have to work through my fears, I must better them or fall prey to them. In doing so I make myself better at each step. You ignore your fears, passing them off to god, you never deal sufficiently with them, happy instead to continue in the delusion that you are looked after, wi ...[text shortened]... responsibility from you for your fears, guilt, ramifications of action. That is a minus point.[/b]
Originally posted by KellyJayTo be fair, however, there are theists out there that do have this dread of God. After all, theism is a broad and diverse group of people. I even know "Christians" who have this type of dread of God in terms of carrying around guilt and worry. I also once viewed God as having a sledge hammer going around thumping people on the head if they got out of line. However, upon my conversion and maturity as a Christian, I now view him very differently and much more in the same way you do in this regard. I think the book of Job opened my eyes a little better in this regard. We see Lucifer as being the one who is watching us to see if we get out of line and going to God and demanding that he deal with us harshly for our sins. He is referred in the Bible as "The accuser of the bretheren". Actually, the word "devil" means accuser. God then is in somewhat of a predicterment in that he must deal justly with the sin but at the same time desires to spare the sinner because he loves them as where Lucifer simply wants to eradicate the sinner. This is why Christ and his message of grace and forgiveness fits the bill in terms of his need to spare the sinner but deal justly with the sin.
How does that work, I'm not concern about sin, I'm not concern about God's being upset, I enjoy God's grace and mercy which removes all fear about those things, and you are saying I'm burdened by fear? Either it is an issue or it isn't.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyNo, you have the position wrong, I claimed there was nothing beneficial in and of atheism and there is not. It is solely a denial of god. In my discussion with Kelly I have attempted to highlight what I believe are disadvantages of theism, not the advantages of atheism.
Sorry to intrude, but in your previous post you said there were no benfits to being an atheist, however, here we clearly see that you think there is a benefit. Here we see that as an atheist you must face your fears alone which, in your mind, helps you be a stronger and better person over all compared to a theist who weakens themself by passing the buch/burd ...[text shortened]... the weak minded theists who use God as a crutch for their troubles. Is this not your position?
Originally posted by Starrman"Why do you worship god? If it is because he demands it, what is the consequence of not doing so?"
Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Actually, perfect Love casts out fear that is one of the very first things
a right relationship with God does, it deals with the reason for our fear
before God. The only need for fear is our guilt before God, which
Jesus died and rose again so we could be clean and righteous before
God so that we can go boldly to nd take with you.
Kelly
You've caught me in one of my more mild mannered moods 😉[/b]