Beyond OSAS

Originally posted by Suzianne
Choice refers to the entire set of decisions one makes on the way to decision-making, such as whether they pause to collect all the details or not.

If someone collects all the details and still finds the claims (about a supernatural being revealing itself to mankind, for example) to be not credible, do you contend that they can make a "decision" to believe it regardless?

Beyond Once Saved Always Saved.

There are a few forms of deification which I am not talking about.
Briefly they would be -

Mormonism's concept
New Age concept of evolution into God.
Popular charismatic "little Gods" concept , ie. Kenneth Copland.

The New Testament talks about God working Himself in to His people. That is God's dispensing His life and nature into His people for a saturation of humanity and divinity. To reproduce Godmen as Jesus the Firstborn Son is Godman.

Here Paul speaks of the believer's destiny to be conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God that He may have many brothers.

" Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rev. 8:29)

But individually we cannot fully express God. The many brothers as a collective and corporate entity form a "city" - New Jerusalem as a composite expression of God mingled with man.

Sons and daughters is mentioned in case anyone wonders if this is only a male matter.

" And I will be a Father to you, and youwill be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Almighty." (2 Cor. 6:18)

SONS - denotes sharing the same life.
I think God made sure there would be no misunderstanding by referring to "sons and daughters" in this New Testament quotation of Hosea 1:10 with Isaiah 43:6. .

The most basic tenet of Christian faith is that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God, that He is God made flesh. While we may desire to know how human beings can become God, we must first wonder how God could become a human being and still be transcendent and other in the first place. Generally, we assign the answer to this more basic question to the mystery of faith, but the incarnation is evidence that in God there is both a mode of existence that makes Him completely other and incommunicable to His creation and a mode of existence that allows Him to participate in His creation and even become a member of it."

[ Kerry S. Robichaux, Can Human Beings Become God?, Affirmation and Critique, Vol. VII, No. 2, Oct. 2002, pg. 31, Living Stream Ministry ]

What do I mean by Beyond Once Saved Always Saved ?
What do I mean by Once Saved Eventually Deified ?

I mean that forgiveness is not an end in itself.
I mean that pardon, redemption, and justification from sin are not ends in themselves.

We must think of God's full salvation as the other end of God's incarnation. He came not for a one way trip but for a round trip.
God became man so that man might become God in life and nature (but not in His Godhead).

Christ came for round trip. That is to bring God into man that He might bring man into God for a mingling of God and man. Therefore all saved have a destiny marked out for them to be sons of God. And we have seen that the sons of God means the God is dispensed INTO a group of people.

We may say God, who is so great, even expands into man. Though the unique non-communicable attribute of His Fatherhood and Headship remain His alone.

The Bible concludes with a marriage of Christ and an entity called the "holy city" - New Jerusalem, that matches Christ and becomes an eternal counterpart to Christ.

When you think about Eve coming out of Adam to be brought back to Adam as his wife, you should also think of New Jerusalem coming down out of God to be brought back to God as His Wife.

The one became two - Eve from out of Adam.
The two became one - Eve brought to Adam for marriage.

The one became two - The church comes out of Christ Who is God incarnate.

The two became one - The church is brought back to Christ to be His eternal Wife.

The two ends of the Bible - Genesis and Revelation mirror each other. Can you see it?

Originally posted by sonship
When you think about Eve coming out of Adam to be brought back to Adam as his wife, you should also think of [b]New Jerusalem coming down out of God to be brought back to God as His Wife.

The one became two - Eve from out of Adam.
The two became one - Eve brought to Adam for marriage.

The one became two - The church comes out of Christ Who is ...[text shortened]... two ends of the Bible - Genesis and Revelation mirror each other. Can you see it?[/b]

I see Genesis as Paradise lost, and the Revelation as Paradise regained.
God will continue what he started in Genesis.
We will return to the "garden of delights" to walk and talk with God as His children.
We will delight ourselves in Him and He, into what He has transformed us, as he shows us His kindness in the "Ages" to come.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Let's work with this just a little bit. And these are genuine questions. I hope to see how you think and learn how you reason through some of these things.

Do you believe that Adam partook of the tree of life ?

"And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9)

We know that there were two particularly special trees. One was forbidden and the other was forbidden AFTER man ate of the other:

" And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever ...

Therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he was taken.

So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (Gen. 3:22-24)

What think ye? Did Adam EVER partake of this tree of life at any time after his creation ?

Thanks.

"Historians of the early church recognize that Athanasius's aphorism "He became man that we might be made God" is the echo pf the very similar statement made around 140 years earlier by Irenaeus of Lyon in one of his major works, Against Heresies: Our Lord Jesus Christ, ... through Is immeasurable love, has become what we are, that He might cause us to be even what He Himself is" ... The motives for Irenaus's writing are, like those for Athanasius's, antiheretical, and his work is universally regarded as solidly orthodox. Yet even in the environment of refuting heresy, he boldly declares that Christ becane what we are in order to make us what He is. The implication is obvious: What we are that He was not already and that He had to become is human, and what He is that we are not already and that He must cause us to become is God."

Kerry S. Robichaux [my bolding]

Once we are saved we are destined to be made God in life and nature but not in His Godhead. Man becomes God in God's communicable attributes expressed in human virtues. I coined this acronym OSED meaning - Once Saved Eventually Deified.

God became man through incarnation by participating in man's humanity; man becomes God (in life and nature but not in the Godhead or any non-communicable attribtes of God) through transformation by participating in God's divinity.

1.) The Christian participates in God's life - (John 3:15; 10:10; Col. 3:4; Romans 8:10,6,11)

2.) The Christian participates in God's nature - ( Eph, 1:4; 2 Peter 1:4)

3.) The Christian participates in God's mind - ( Eph. 4:23; Phil. 2:5 )

4.) The Christian participates in God's being - (2 Cor. 3:18b; Eph. 3:8)

5.) The Christian participates in God's image - ( 2 Cor. 3:18a; Rom. 8:29)

6.) The Christian participates in God's glory - (Rom. 8:30; Heb. 2:10; John 17:22)

7.) The Christian participates in God's sonship - (Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:23; Heb. 2:10-11; Rev. 21:7)

8.) The Christian participates in God's manifestation - (Rom. 8:19)

9.) The Christian participates to bear God's likeness - (1 John 3:2)

10.) The Christian participates in "God's kind" or we may say "God's species" - (John 1:12; Rom. 8:14,16)

"Let the truth be trumpeted: We have not been adopted by God - we have been born of God! When our spirit was born of the Spirit through the word of God (1 Pet. 1:23) we were born, begotten, of God to become children of God. As the Father's children, we have the Father's life, which is eternal, and we have the Father's nature which is divine. However, we do not have His Fatherhood. Because we are children of God, we are the same as the begetting God in life and in nature. Human children have the life and nature of their parents, and the children of God have the life and nature of their Father. The only way to avoid this obvious truth is to deny the reality of regeneration. To believe that we have been born of God to be children of God is to believe that, in a certain restricted sense, we are God."

- Ron Kangus

[Affirmation & Critique VII - No. 2 - October 2002 (my bolding) ]

Originally posted by sonship
Let's work with this just a little bit. And these are genuine questions. I hope to see how you think and learn how you reason through some of these things.

Do you believe that Adam partook of [b]the tree of life ?

[quote] "And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of l ...[text shortened]... ? Did Adam EVER partake of this tree of life at any time after his creation ?

Thanks.

No, he did not.

Originally posted by sonship

"Let the truth be trumpeted: We have not been adopted by God - we have been born of God! When our spirit was born of the Spirit through the word of God [b] (1 Pet. 1:23) we were born, begotten, of God to become children of God. As the Father's children, we have the Father's life, which is eternal, and we have the Father's nature which is divin ...[text shortened]... - Ron Kangus

[Affirmation & Critique VII - No. 2 - October 2002 (my bolding) ][/b]

You know that you are clearly at odds with what the bible claims. It says we are "adopted".

Rom 8:14-17
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs
NKJV

Gal 4:4-5
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV

Eph 1:4-6
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You know that you are clearly at odds with what the bible claims. It says we are "adopted".

Rom 8:14-17
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witn ...[text shortened]... e praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV

You know that you are clearly at odds with what the bible claims. It says we are "adopted".
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I will have to discuss this latter. But to translate the word "sonship" is not "at odds with the Bible". Its a better rendering of the word meaning "the place of a son" - sonship.

I emphasized the organic[/b] relationship in life between the begetting Father and the begotten sons. And your submitted verses argue [i]forth this understanding rather than against. I will quote from the Recovery Version.

Rom 8:14-17 [RcV]

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba Father!

The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit tjt we are he children of God.

The rest of the passage is splendid. But this is all I need to make that point. The Spirit with the human spirit of the believer is exactly God Himself mingled with the human spirit in a living and organic union.

This is why Paul writes:

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The union being the living God as the Holy Spirit and the regenerated human spirit to be "one spirit" is far deeper than a mere legal adoption.

The union is the Lord Himself exactly with the human spirit -

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)

The organic relationship of being "joined" in life to God we feel is better expressed in the better translation sonship.

I will be back for more comments latter.
And I do agree with you that Adam never ate of the tree of life.
And this is why man eating of the tree of life in New Jerusalem must symbolize not just going back but even going beyond what Adam was.

Checkbaiter,

The relationship Christians have towards God is by birth rather than merely a legal adoption.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, ... Who were BEGOTTEN ... of God." (See John 1:12,13)

While "adopted" may not be not completely wrong, it is superficial.
The sons of God were "BEGOTTEN" of God in a life germination.

The living SEED of God is implanted into their being.

"Everyone who has been BEGOTTEN of God does not practice sin because His SEED abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been BEGOTTEN of God." ( 1 John 3:9)

Don't you agree that the life union between the Christian and the begetting Father is deeper than mere legal "adoption" ?

The Brethren also taught about sonship, but the sonship they taught is not by birth but by adoption. What they meant is that we are not genuine sons of God but adopted sons of God; hence, we have obtained sonship through God’s adoption.

- Witness Lee

Lee goes on to explain that Ephesians is about God working Himself into His redeemed people. That is the working of His Divine Life into the created human life for an "organic" union.

The SEED is a matter of life, not just legality.
And the Christians are "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4) which means man can PARTICIPATE in what God possesses in His life.

In both Romans and Galatians the uttering of "Abba Father" emphasizes that God is the believers' actual Daddy, their Papa, in a most intimate life union.

In fact the living Spirit of God "bears witness with our spirit" concerning the living union the Christian has deep in her being with the begetting Father.

" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:16)

That is children "begotten" of God and not merely legally adopted.

Originally posted by sonship
Checkbaiter,

The relationship Christians have towards God is by birth rather than merely a legal adoption.

[b] "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, ... Who were BEGOTTEN ... of God." (See John 1:12,13)

While "adopted" may not be not completely wrong, it is sup ...[text shortened]... m. 8:16)[/b] [/quote] That is children "begotten" of God and not merely legally adopted.[/b]

While "adopted" may not be not completely wrong, it is superficial.
The sons of God were "BEGOTTEN" of God in a life germination.

The living SEED of God is implanted into their being.

Superficial? Then why does the bible say "adopted"?

If we are to get a more thorough and richer understanding of the bible, we need to step back and "think" like a 1st century Jew/Gentile/Roman, etc.

Ephesians 1:5 says that God has predestined us to be “adopted” as His sons through Jesus Christ. What adoption means must be determined by the cultural norms of the First Century. Adoption was a very binding legal contract in the Roman Empire, more binding even than natural birth. An adopted son was a full heir, and could never be disinherited after adoption. A natural-born son, however, could be disinherited. The difference is choice. A father could have a son by accident as the by-product of sexual intercourse with a woman, but a child could be adopted only by deliberate action on the part of the adopting parent.
Thus, the metaphor of “adoption” emphasizes the deliberate choice exercised by God in choosing us to be His sons. This is also borne out by the language of the immediate context of Ephesians 1:5: “in accordance with His pleasure and will,” “to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us,” “in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding,” and “He made known unto us the mystery [secret] of His will according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ.” Clearly this was a decision entered into by God with complete understanding and commitment. To argue that man’s sin can negate the express determination and accomplishment of God is ridiculous.

Do you realize the impact this understanding would have on the common people? Here God was saying that they would be adopted, and never to be "disowned"! There was a permanence, if you will of their salvation. This was cause for great joy! It was unheard of at the time.
So, to me, there is good reason to use the word adopted. Some people look at "adopted" as a lesser thing than biological sons.
A friend who has a wife who was adopted, says that his wife was teased when she was a child and going to school.
The kids would point and say "You are adopted"! They were smug sitting atop their pedestal.
Do you know what she told them?
My parents loved me and chose me, yours were stuck with what they got!
I see this as the impact adoption had at the time of the writing of scripture and can still hold true today.