1. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    22 Dec '11 11:31
    Many of you must have read that the local prosecutor of the city of Tomsk, Russia, has called for a ban on the Bhagawat Geeta on the grounds of it being a " subversive document ". Nothing can be more absurd. It appears that the Russian branch of ISCKON i.e.the internatiöal society for Krishna consciousness is at loggerheads with Russian Orthodox Church due to property disputes. This and other disputes might have led to the present case. But to drag the ancient book or its translation by ISCKON into a court of law and call it subversive is descipable. One thought that the present day Russia as a liberated and therefore a liberal country. What a nasty surprise ! Any comments ?
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Dec '11 11:451 edit
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    Many of you must have read that the local prosecutor of the city of Tomsk, Russia, has called for a ban on the Bhagawat Geeta on the grounds of it being a " subversive document ". Nothing can be more absurd. It appears that the Russian branch of ISCKON i.e.the internatiöal society for Krishna consciousness is at loggerheads with Russian Orthodox Church du ...[text shortened]... Russia as a liberated and therefore a liberal country. What a nasty surprise ! Any comments ?
    Surely someone asking for a document to be banned must say why [like more than just subversive] . Did he? If so what were the reasons.
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    22 Dec '11 11:54
    If the bible would be written today, it would be not to be sold without a warning, somethng like "Not to be read by minors!" Some horrible stories...
  4. Subscribersonhouse
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    22 Dec '11 12:181 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Surely someone asking for a document to be banned must say why [like more than just subversive] . Did he? If so what were the reasons.
    Like he said, there is more than meets the eye here, it does not appear to be about the book but a legalistic tactical move so the orthodox church can grab some territory owned by the Krishna people.
  5. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    22 Dec '11 13:38
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Surely someone asking for a document to be banned must say why [like more than just subversive] . Did he? If so what were the reasons.
    I understand subversion to mean clandestine activities undertaken to overthrow a government. Geeta---a terrorist manual ?! Geeta does talk of liberation of one's soul from the 6 foibles or 6 enemies embedded in our nature. So is that terrorism ?
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    22 Dec '11 15:383 edits
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    I understand subversion to mean clandestine activities undertaken to overthrow a government. Geeta---a terrorist manual ?! Geeta does talk of liberation of one's soul from the 6 foibles or 6 enemies embedded in our nature. So is that terrorism ?
    if you were a dictatorial leader, would you want your peoples' souls to be "liberated" from the "state religion".
  7. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    22 Dec '11 17:24
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    if you were a dictatorial leader, would you want your peoples' souls to be "liberated" from the "state religion".
    Russia is a democracy. I believe that it does not have a state religion.
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    22 Dec '11 18:25
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    Russia is a democracy. I believe that it does not have a state religion.
    You expressed surprise that Russia apparently wasn't as liberated as you thought it was. Do you believe a previously autocratic society can fully embrace democracy and all that it entails within only a 20 year period?
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Dec '11 18:311 edit
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    Russia is a democracy. I believe that it does not have a state religion.
    Changing the name or ideology of a country does not immediately effect that change. It sometimes takes years or generations. You for one should know that. In India according to you the government instituted a system of reverse discrimination in favour of the 'backward' castes the aim being to bring them on a level playing field eventually, and that did not sit well with the so-called 'forward' castes, and it might take several generations to remove that feeling of superiority.

    Russia has only recently been out of an oppressive communist system and several generations of Russians would been entrenched in its philosophies. One of those is the condemnation of religion. The state saw religion as a competing authority for the loyalties of the masses and hence it was banned for almost 100 years. How long do you think that idea will take to dissipate ?
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    22 Dec '11 22:06
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    Many of you must have read that the local prosecutor of the city of Tomsk, Russia, has called for a ban on the Bhagawat Geeta on the grounds of it being a " subversive document ". Nothing can be more absurd. It appears that the Russian branch of ISCKON i.e.the internatiöal society for Krishna consciousness is at loggerheads with Russian Orthodox Church du ...[text shortened]... Russia as a liberated and therefore a liberal country. What a nasty surprise ! Any comments ?
    I also would be interested to hear why this document is subversive. My reading of the Gita is that a man ought to carry out his duty, whatever it is, no matter what one's personal feelings are, with no attachment to the outcome of one's actions. Arguably, that could be a justification for a nationalist ideology and the suppression of individual dissent.
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    22 Dec '11 22:161 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    I also would be interested to hear why this document is subversive. My reading of the Gita is that a man ought to carry out his duty, whatever it is, no matter what one's personal feelings are, with no attachment to the outcome of one's actions. Arguably, that could be a justification for a nationalist ideology and the suppression of individual dissent.
    the same teaching could also be used by dissenters to justify taking risky action against an unjust ruler.
  12. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    23 Dec '11 11:20
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    You expressed surprise that Russia apparently wasn't as liberated as you thought it was. Do you believe a previously autocratic society can fully embrace democracy and all that it entails within only a 20 year period?
    I actually meant mainly the Russian Govt. and State rather than the Russian people.If the newly liberated State i.e. freed from the Communist dogma and the repressive organs of Communist bureaucracy, can declare an ancient theological/spiritual tract as a subversive book, it is disbelieving, to say the least.
    The Russian people may still carry the mindset of Stalinist days when betraying your parents to N.I.Yezhov/Genrikh Yagoda/Lavrenti Beria was OK Historically my impression of Russians is that they are deeply anti-Semitic, insular in outlook and a bit crazy.
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    24 Dec '11 14:01
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    If the bible would be written today, it would be not to be sold without a warning, somethng like "Not to be read by minors!" Some horrible stories...
    If the bible would be written today, it would be not to be sold without a warning, somethng like "Not to be read by minors!" Some horrible stories...


    The Bible should be read by minors. We trust the Holy Spirit to guide and enlighten every reader of the Bible.

    Paul reminded his co-worker and junior apostle Timothy that he had known the Scriptures (Old Testament then) from infancy:

    "And that from a babe you have known the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ." (2 Tim. 3:15)

    I might not start a youngster on the book of Leviticus. But why on earth would I discourage a minor from reading the word of God ?

    Those who would forbid minors to read the Bible are like the old fashion Catholics, locking up the Scriptures from the common people.

    We Bible readers have much more faith in the Holy Spirit. They can start right with Genesis. That would be splendid if a minor read on her or his own initiative the book of Genesis.
  14. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    28 Dec '11 13:04
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    I actually meant mainly the Russian Govt. and State rather than the Russian people.If the newly liberated State i.e. freed from the Communist dogma and the repressive organs of Communist bureaucracy, can declare an ancient theological/spiritual tract as a subversive book, it is disbelieving, to say the least.
    The Russian people may still carry the mindse ...[text shortened]... impression of Russians is that they are deeply anti-Semitic, insular in outlook and a bit crazy.
    All tolerant and liberal people whether atheists or theists will be glad to know that the Russian Court of Law has refused to ban the " Bhagavat Geeta ", the Hindu holy book. Reason has prevailed over prejudice !
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    30 Dec '11 07:551 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Those who would forbid minors to read the Bible are like the old fashion Catholics, locking up the Scriptures from the common people.
    Do you think parents should encourage their children to read other religions' holy books and let them decide for themselves?
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