1. Donationrwingett
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    03 Jun '06 21:11
    In a great victory for advocates of church/state separation, an Iowa bible-based prison program was ordered closed by a U.S. District Judge for violateing the First Amendment's freedom of religion clause by using state funds to promote Christianity to inmates.

    More on the story:
    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ns-tos-news-h-04&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20060603%2F0943924147.htm&sc=1110

    Americans United for Separation of Church and State (the group which initiated the suit):
    http://www.au.org
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    03 Jun '06 21:15
    Originally posted by rwingett
    In a great victory for advocates of church/state separation, an Iowa bible-based prison program was ordered closed by a U.S. District Judge for violateing the First Amendment's freedom of religion clause by using state funds to promote Christianity to inmates.

    More on the story:
    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ns-tos-news-h-04&idq=/ff/st ...[text shortened]... ted for Separation of Church and State (the group which initiated the suit):
    http://www.au.org
    I thought you might have argued that it was "cruel and unusual punishment."
  3. Donationrwingett
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    03 Jun '06 21:36
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I thought you might have argued that it was "cruel and unusual punishment."
    Had the program been mandatory it would have been.
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    03 Jun '06 22:07
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Had the program been mandatory it would have been.
    I don't know. I'm suffered through some sermons that could have been characterized as cruel and unusual.
  5. Standard memberorfeo
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    03 Jun '06 22:32
    Originally posted by rwingett
    In a great victory for advocates of church/state separation, an Iowa bible-based prison program was ordered closed by a U.S. District Judge for violateing the First Amendment's freedom of religion clause by using state funds to promote Christianity to inmates.

    More on the story:
    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ns-tos-news-h-04&idq=/ff/st ...[text shortened]... ted for Separation of Church and State (the group which initiated the suit):
    http://www.au.org
    I've always found the strict interpretation of the First Amendment to be one of America's most interesting little quirks. Your Constitution and other foundational documents have more references to God than most other countries - and it's clearly a Christian God - yet the separation clause is (ahem) religiously adhered to.

    I understand the French position much more readily, because their republic has always been strongly secular. But America is one of the most religious countries in the developed world.
  6. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    03 Jun '06 22:33
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I don't know. I'm suffered through some sermons that could have been characterized as cruel and unusual.
    I slept through a few of them like that.



    hey wait, I don't know what they were like , since I slept throught all of em.
  7. Donationrwingett
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    03 Jun '06 23:22
    Originally posted by orfeo
    I've always found the strict interpretation of the First Amendment to be one of America's most interesting little quirks. Your Constitution and other foundational documents have more references to God than most other countries - and it's clearly a Christian God - yet the separation clause is (ahem) religiously adhered to.

    I understand the French position m ...[text shortened]... strongly secular. But America is one of the most religious countries in the developed world.
    Once again you have displayed your complete ignorance on the matter. The U.S. Constitution is a godless document. There is not one single reference to god in it, christian or otherwise. Not one.
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    03 Jun '06 23:27
    Originally posted by rwingett
    In a great victory for advocates of church/state separation, an Iowa bible-based prison program was ordered closed by a U.S. District Judge for violateing the First Amendment's freedom of religion clause by using state funds to promote Christianity to inmates.

    More on the story:
    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ns-tos-news-h-04&idq=/ff/st ...[text shortened]... ted for Separation of Church and State (the group which initiated the suit):
    http://www.au.org
    That's great!

    And in my country they've banned bibles in hospitals too.
  9. Standard memberorfeo
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    04 Jun '06 08:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Once again you have displayed your complete ignorance on the matter. The U.S. Constitution is a godless document. There is not one single reference to god in it, christian or otherwise. Not one.
    Okay, so "In God We Trust" and "one nation under God" are somewhere else then. My comment was about the disparity in general.
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Jun '06 09:27
    Originally posted by orfeo
    Okay, so "In God We Trust" and "one nation under God" are somewhere else then. My comment was about the disparity in general.
    Those were created in the 1950's I believe. They shouldn't exist.
  11. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    04 Jun '06 09:481 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Those were created in the 1950's I believe. They shouldn't exist.
    They certainly weren't created by Thomas Paine while he was writing Common Sense at Valley Forge.
  12. Standard membergenius
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    04 Jun '06 10:18
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Had the program been mandatory it would have been.
    so it wasn't mandatory? basically, that people who wanted to learn about God could attend this program and they would, well, learn about God? now, i know little about prison, but can prisoners not take classes in others things, like maths and the like? paid for by the state? thus, they can learn about everything but religion? that's crazy talk!

    also, who would find this matter important enough to bring it to court? in one prison, what are they paying for? maybe a few leaflets? a few bibles? with an initial cost of £50 and maybe £50 a year thereafter? that's not a lot. and they could cut down on that if they tried. gideons bibles? writing their own notes? that's not a major dig into prison funds! and really-if you get even 1 out of every 10 prisoners that attend converted then that one prisoner shall be much less likely to re-offend, and some of the other nine shall perhaps start to wonder about the error of their ways. that's £50 p/a well spent, if you ask me!
  13. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Jun '06 10:511 edit
    Originally posted by genius
    so it wasn't mandatory? basically, that people who wanted to learn about God could attend this program and they would, well, learn about God? now, i know little about prison, but can prisoners not take classes in others things, like maths and the like? paid for by the state? thus, they can learn about everything but religion? that's crazy talk!

    also, who w ps start to wonder about the error of their ways. that's £50 p/a well spent, if you ask me!
    InnerChange inmates received special benefits solely because they were willing to submit to the type of Christian evangelism promoted by Prison Fellowship.

    http://www.au.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr012=ej64ql0cx1.app1b&abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=8245&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1241

    That's quite a bit different than having a library with religious studies material.
  14. Standard membergenius
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    04 Jun '06 11:481 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    [b]InnerChange inmates received special benefits solely because they were willing to submit to the type of Christian evangelism promoted by Prison Fellowship.
    [/b]
    http://www.au.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr012=ej64ql0cx1.app1b&abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=8245&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1241

    That's quite a bit different than having a library with religious studies material.
    touche-i didn't look at the links.

    hypothetically speaking, if you had a repeat offender who just seemed to be getting worse. the prison system didn't seem to be working for him. you've tried every form of rehabilitation available. would you feed him a lie to stop him offending again?
  15. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Jun '06 11:511 edit
    Originally posted by genius
    touche-i didn't look at the links.

    hypothetically speaking, if you had a repeat offender who just seemed to be getting worse. the prison system didn't seem to be working for him. you've tried every form of rehabilitation available. would you feed him a lie to stop him offending again?
    I'd keep him locked up for the rest of his life, in solitary if necessary. If you insist on a simple yes/no answer where the only possible way to stop him from offending was to lie to him and lying would guarantee he didn't offend, I suppose I'd lie to him. Unrealistic questions like this are hard to answer though.
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