1. Joined
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    30 Dec '13 17:18
    I have found a couple of websites that have attempted to compile the number of deaths attributable to God and God’s followers in the Christian Bible. These websites differ a little in exact numbers, but are in the same ballpark. One attributes about 2.8 million deaths from specific numbers mentioned in the Bible, the other 2.4 million (and subdivides these into about 400,000 by God, and 2.0 million by God’s followers). One site also attempts to estimate deaths due to God and/or his followers for events that are without specific numbers in the Bible (like Noah’s Flood) and estimates about 25 million deaths in total.

    http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page22.htm

    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

    Are these numbers close to being accurate? Both of these sites were clearly non-Christian sites, so is anyone aware of a pro-Christian site that similarly attempts to compile these numbers?
  2. Joined
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    30 Dec '13 17:301 edit
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    I have found a couple of websites that have attempted to compile the number of deaths attributable to God and God’s followers in the Christian Bible. These websites differ a little in exact numbers, but are in the same ballpark. One attributes about 2.8 million deaths from specific numbers mentioned in the Bible, the other 2.4 million (and subdivides these ...[text shortened]... es, so is anyone aware of a pro-Christian site that similarly attempts to compile these numbers?
    You are way out with this data; God created mankind and set mankind's lifespan, so God is therefore responsible for the birth and death of every single human being who has ever lived.
  3. Joined
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    30 Dec '13 18:03
    Originally posted by divegeester
    You are way out with this data; God created mankind and set mankind's lifespan, so God is therefore responsible for the birth and death of every single human being who has ever lived.
    Are you saying that god is responsible for death in a generic sense (god didn’t make people immortal, so everyone will die sometime), or are you arguing that god determines the exact moment of death (theological determinism)?

    If you are arguing the former, then these numbers are important, because god would be actively choosing to end lives earlier than would happen otherwise. If you are arguing the latter, then god is actively responsible for every death, including for example, the 6.6 million children under the age of five that died in 2012 (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/), and as such the 25 million number would be a gross underestimate.
  4. Joined
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    30 Dec '13 18:15
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    Are you saying that god is responsible for death in a generic sense (god didn’t make people immortal, so everyone will die sometime), or are you arguing that god determines the exact moment of death (theological determinism)?

    If you are arguing the former, then these numbers are important, because god would be actively choosing to end lives earlier than ...[text shortened]... acentre/factsheets/fs178/en/), and as such the 25 million number would be a gross underestimate.
    I'm saying that god is sovereign and therefore takes responsibility for everything. All the good stuff too including all the good things in your life.

    God reduced the lifespan of all human beings to "3 score and 10" so yes is responsible for reducing the lives of every human being on earth.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    30 Dec '13 21:13
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    Are these numbers close to being accurate?
    As accurate as the 147 deaths attributed to Lord Voldemort.
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    31 Dec '13 00:18
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    As accurate as the 147 deaths attributed to Lord Voldemort.
    I agree that Lord Voldemort is comparable (at least in terms of reality if not in scale). I just think there are at least two aspects of religious debate. First is whether the god (or gods) exists, but second is whether the god is worthy of worship and/or admiration. I’m extremely skeptical that a god responsible for millions of deaths should garner any type of worship or admiration, and wanted to see if anyone had any counter-arguments.

    The only response so far is divegeester’s argument that there is no difference between god setting an average human lifespan and god actively killing people, which I find unconvincing to say the least. I’m pretty confident that if I told someone they probably wouldn’t live past seventy, the law would look far more kindly upon me than if I chopped that person's head off.
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    31 Dec '13 00:28
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    I agree that Lord Voldemort is comparable (at least in terms of reality if not in scale). I just think there are at least two aspects of religious debate. First is whether the god (or gods) exists, but second is whether the god is worthy of worship and/or admiration. I’m extremely skeptical that a god responsible for millions of deaths should garner any typ ...[text shortened]... st seventy, the law would look far more kindly upon me than if I chopped that person's head off.
    "I’m extremely skeptical that a god responsible for millions of deaths should garner any type of worship or admiration, and wanted to see if anyone had any counter-arguments."

    To some people it depends on whether he kills their friends or their enemies.
  8. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
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    31 Dec '13 00:53
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    I have found a couple of websites that have attempted to compile the number of deaths attributable to God and God’s followers in the Christian Bible. These websites differ a little in exact numbers, but are in the same ballpark. One attributes about 2.8 million deaths from specific numbers mentioned in the Bible, the other 2.4 million (and subdivides these ...[text shortened]... es, so is anyone aware of a pro-Christian site that similarly attempts to compile these numbers?
    God gave all those people chance to repent and turn the other way before destroying their cities
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    31 Dec '13 02:28
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    God gave all those people chance to repent and turn the other way before destroying their cities
    Hitler gave Londoners a chance too before the Blitz.
  10. Donationrwingett
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    31 Dec '13 02:47
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I'm saying that god is sovereign and therefore takes responsibility for everything. All the good stuff too including all the good things in your life.

    God reduced the lifespan of all human beings to "3 score and 10" so yes is responsible for reducing the lives of every human being on earth.
    That isn't exactly consistent with the commonly understood definition of 'omnibenevolence', is it?
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    31 Dec '13 05:36
    Originally posted by rwingett
    That isn't exactly consistent with the commonly understood definition of 'omnibenevolence', is it?
    Who are we to say it's not benevolent?
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    31 Dec '13 07:59
    Originally posted by rwingett
    That isn't exactly consistent with the commonly understood definition of 'omnibenevolence', is it?
    Perhaps not, but it is consistent with how The Lord describes himself and his relationship with mankind in the Bible.
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    31 Dec '13 07:59
    Originally posted by JS357
    Who are we to say it's not benevolent?
    Exactly.
  14. Joined
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    31 Dec '13 08:06
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    I agree that Lord Voldemort is comparable (at least in terms of reality if not in scale). I just think there are at least two aspects of religious debate. First is whether the god (or gods) exists, but second is whether the god is worthy of worship and/or admiration. I’m extremely skeptical that a god responsible for millions of deaths should garner any typ ...[text shortened]... st seventy, the law would look far more kindly upon me than if I chopped that person's head off.
    If the person was 69 years and 364 days old and you told them they would die in a plane crash tomorrow, how is that different from being 69 years and 364 day sold and dying by guillotine in the French Revolution?
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    31 Dec '13 15:17
    Originally posted by divegeester
    If the person was 69 years and 364 days old and you told them they would die in a plane crash tomorrow, how is that different from being 69 years and 364 day sold and dying by guillotine in the French Revolution?
    I can't go any further in this line of discussion until you answer my earlier question as to whether or not you think god determines the exact time of death for every single person, or just for some people (like the people referenced in the original post). Your latest analogy isn't even remotely relevant to your argument (because neither part of your analogy dealt with the issue of god setting up an average human lifespan), and in any event is unanswerable because you didn't tell me if the plane crash was intentional or accidental.

    I am interested in something else you mentioned earlier, that god is responsible for all the good things in life as well. Are you arguing that doing enough good will make up for doing something bad?
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