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Originally posted by @js357
OK I'll defer to Dive's focus on the question of literalism, instead of a focus on copyists' typos.
Is a major tenet of Christianity that Bible passages that can be taken to heart as allegories, should instead or in addition, be taken as reporting historic fact? I am thinking of talking serpents and the like.
Is a major tenet of Christianity that Bible passages that can be taken to heart as allegories, should instead or in addition, be taken as reporting historic fact? I am thinking of talking serpents and the like.
Some things in the record have a historical and allegorical significance.
I eventually came around to understanding Adam and Eve as both historical as well as allegorical.
The two trees in the garden,
The serpent,
Noah's ark (both historical and allegorical)
The ark of the covenant (both historical and symbolic)
The good land of Canaan (both historical and very allegorical)
The temple, the city of Jerusalem (the same)
The tabernacle (actual and allegorical)
Mt. Sinai (both)
This position I came to gradually and eventually.
Prior to its understanding I could still experience Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by @fmfI think you seem to think I seem to think, but I assure you I don't. 🙄
You seem to think that "literal" and "allegorical", "metaphorical", and "figurative" are all synonymous. They are not. On top of that, you seem to think that "literal" and "believable" are synonyms. But they are not.
Originally posted by @josephwSo, in view of this foolishness about "#2 lead pencils", I take it that you are conceding that the "book", the stuff that is supposedly "written" in it, whatever tool was used to write it, the "sea" and the "lake", are all metaphorical details in an allegory about judgement and damnation?
Well, maybe you're right. Since angels are ministering spirits, I'm assuming their the ones doing the writing, and since we know they are really big dudes I think it's safe to assume that they probably use #2 lead pencils the size of redwood trees. Real trees. Not allegorical ones.
Originally posted by @josephwWell, you posted what you posted. "Of course it's literal. Even where it is allegorical, metaphorical, figurative or parable. Are you sure you understand what literal means..."
So you say.
It is clearly you who are struggling to use the words "literal" and "allegorical" correctly.
Originally posted by @sonshipIt stands out that you did not labelIs a major tenet of Christianity that Bible passages that can be taken to heart as allegories, should instead or in addition, be taken as reporting historic fact? I am thinking of talking serpents and the like.
Some things in the record have a historical and allegorical significance.
I eventually came around to understanding Adam and ...[text shortened]... to gradually and eventually.
Prior to its understanding I could still experience Jesus Christ.
The two trees in the garden,
The serpent,
as both historical and allegorical.
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Originally posted by @js357That's peculiar to me that you thought that. I thought I communicated that I certainly regard the two trees and the speaking serpent as historical and highly symbolic also (allegorical).
It stands out that you did not label
The two trees in the garden,
The serpent,
as both historical and allegorical.
I eventually came around to understanding Adam and Eve as both historical as well as allegorical.
The two trees in the garden,
The serpent,
Noah's ark (both historical and allegorical)
The ark of the covenant (both historical and symbolic)
The good land of Canaan (both historical and very allegorical)
etc. etc.
The symbolic side is more important today, I think.
But the flow of history from the story is pretty obviously meant to be taken as historical.
Cain went out from the presence of God and dwelt EAST of Eden, I don't think Moses meant that Cain went EAST of a purely allegorical geographic location.
" And Cain went forth from the presence of Jehovah and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden." (Gen.4:16)
In His sovereignty God caused the beginnings of mankind's origins in the earth to happen in the peculiar supernatural manner that they did. I believe this has the function of revealing to subsequent generations that our origins are rooted in the supernatural and not in the natural.
This I take as the best way (ie. a speaking animal) in which God could convey that the origins of man's problems are not rooted in the natural realm but in the supernatural realm.
It is important for human beings to realize this.
The impossibility of a speaking beast was used under God's sovereignty to capture the vital truth. An evil intelligence doing what it was not suppose to be doing grounds man's dilemma in the realm of the supernatural. And the remedy is therefore in the realm of God and the supernatural also.
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Today in the New Testament age the life of God is in Jesus Christ. It is a waste of effort and time for people to go hunting for Eden and the tree of life, whatever happened to either.
The Gospel of John and others New Testament books make clear that Christ is the life of God, the eternal life, the life which is to be "food" for man to "eat" and live forever in the sphere and realm of God.
"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:4)
In Jesus Christ is this eternal life. Do not go hunting for a physical tree of life. Come to Jesus Christ.
" ... I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly." (John 10:10b)
Today the tree of life is in Jesus Christ. He is the life, the way, and the reality.
" Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
He is the bread of life (John 5) . And He is "the resurrection and the life"
"Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live. and every one who lives and believes into Me shall by ni means die forever. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25,26)
I am persuaded.
Originally posted by @sonshipMe too.
Today in the New Testament age the life of God is in Jesus Christ. It is a waste of effort and time for people to go hunting for Eden and the tree of life, whatever happened to either.
The Gospel of John and others New Testament books make clear that Christ is the life of God, the eternal life, the life which is to be "food" for man to "eat" and live for ...[text shortened]... by ni means die forever. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25,26) [/quote]
I am persuaded.[/b]